Replies
- COConnorOriginal PosterMay 10, 2024[quote]"I'm kind of reinventing my life, if you will, to create the masterpiece, which is the rest of my life vision," said Jason. "So, I'm thinking, what are my top three priorities? If I could dream of any kind of life that I want? And yes, going nude in public was one of my top three." Keltie Armstrong, a South Burlington resident said she saw Jason walking around this week, but he's not the first nude man going for a stroll in Burlington." Note: It's legal to be naked in public in Vermont, as long as the person doesn't disrobe in public or harass anyone. Full Article with news video: www.mynbc5.com/article/naked-man-downtown-burlington/60748215 1/2[/quote] a. Yay! b. Nay! c. Bring out the torches and pitchforks! d. Pack your stuff, we're moving to Vermont! 2/2ReactReply
- TD
Tom DMay 10, 2024Seems backward that Burlington would ban nudity in parks but permit it anywhere else.
ReactReply - J1
Jeremy 1993May 10, 2024I feel the sudden urge to want to visit Vermont. Just so I can walk around naked in public. That sounds like heaven to me.
ReactReply - PA
Please askMay 10, 2024The local laws need to be confirmed but there is a distinction between Burlington and South Burlington, two separate cities with differnt ordinances.
ReactReply - PAPlease askMay 10, 2024
The local laws need to be confirmed but there is a distinction between Burlington and South Burlington, two separate cities with differnt ordinances.
ReactReply - COConnorOriginal PosterMay 11, 2024[strong]WTF: Why Is Public Nudity Legal in Vermont But Public Disrobing Isn't?[/strong]
"Vermont's flip-floppy attitude on public nudity can confound newcomers
who learn that, though it's legal to be naked in public, it's illegal to get naked there."
What?! Huh? Confused?
Read on.
Article:
[strong]www.sevendaysvt.com/arts-culture/wtf-why-is-public-nudity-legal-in-vermont-but-public-disrobing-isnt-2804753[/strong]ReactReply - KE
kevinvermontMay 11, 2024I live in South Burlington. They started an ordinance against nudity in the 90s because someone started a strip club and some locals wanted it shut down. Too bad. Burlington its legal unless you are in a city park. Myself i go in The National Forest. It is not far. It is a beautiful area here.
ReactReply - RI
RickMay 11, 2024There is a difference between the state allowing nudity and the state not banning nuding. Most people do not realize that although there is no state law against public nudity in Vermont; town, cities, and counties may outlaw being nude in public. Yes, there is a patchwork of nude being legal v. illegal in Vermont depending upon location.
Long Island Nuder - a product of the Vermont Educational System
ReactReply - EA
EarlDMay 11, 2024Very good point that nuance is often lost on most people when it comes to the subject of public nudity as is the difference between social nudity and public nudity [quote]There is a difference between the state allowing nudity and the state not banning nuding. Most people do not realize that although there is no state law against public nudity in Vermont; town, cities, and counties may outlaw being nude in public. Yes, there is a patchwork of nude being legal v. illegal in Vermont depending upon location. Long Island Nuder - a product of the Vermont Educational System[/quote]ReactReply - ST
StevieLornaMay 13, 2024That nuance is an excellent point.
As a nudist of over twenty years if Id seen a nude man waking down the street, a nudist would be the last thing Id think he was. Pranked possibly, mentally unstable, drugged, or just a simple exhibitionist would be high on the list, but never a nudist.
We have dozens of nudist friends, met and talked with hundreds over the years and not once has doing something like going for a nude walk around your home town haas never been an ambition.
ReactReply - TDTom DMay 13, 2024[quote]That nuance is an excellent point. As a nudist of over twenty years if Id seen a nude man waking down the street, a nudist would be the last thing Id think he was. Pranked possibly, mentally unstable, drugged, or just a simple exhibitionist would be high on the list, but never a nudist. We have dozens of nudist friends, met and talked with hundreds over the years and not once has doing something like going for a nude walk around your home town haas never been an ambition.[/quote] So even though it is generally legal to be nude in public in the UK, no one you know has ever been nude on a busy street, except possibly at an organized event like a WNBR?ReactReply
- STStevieLornaMay 13, 2024[quote] So even though it is generally legal to be nude in public in the UK, no one you know has ever been nude on a busy street, except possibly at an organized event like a WNBR?[/quote] Read what I said not what you think I said.ReactReply
- ST
SteveMay 13, 2024Granted that moving naked among a community of the clothed isn't The Same Thing as the social nudism of resorts, beaches, clubs.
It's easy to think of motivations that might merit disapproval or restraint - the desire to offend or provoke, sexual exhibitionism, mental illness, all of them quite real. And all of them fairly evident with a bit of thought and observation (despite the endless special pleading by some of the offenders.)
But there are other motivations, too. Let me try to get at one of them....
Sometimes it can feel good to dress up. I've got a couple of very long linen shirts that I really like. Some days, when I go into town, I'll wear one, and it feels really dressy to me, and even attracts an occasional "I love your shirt" comment in a checkout line or somesuch. And sometimes I don't, because I just don't feel I can carry it off that day; it'll feel as if I've gone out in pajamas. The clothing hasn't changed, of course. But my posture, carriage, social receptiveness, have.
Nudity can be another kind of dressing up. Imagine a community where the likelihood of genuine offense at simple nudity is unlikely. Its laws should help one figure that out. I used to spend time in such a community - the Rainbow Gatherings of thousands of people, almost all of them almost always clothed, but no rule against nudity. There, the occasional person might go skyclad (I'm not a wiccan, but I love that word!) as a simple celebration of existence, an expression of joy. Dressing up much more grandly than usual, because in the moment they've got the energy to carry it off, and drawing energy from the experience. Maybe it's a point on a spiritual journey, an act of reverence, an expression of one-ness, language comes that the cynical could begin to interpret as mental illness, indeed. I've had that experience, and it's been a real high point. From the sound of it, his walk was a high point for our Burlington stroller. More power to him.
ReactReply - STSteveMay 13, 2024
A couple of stories:
My partner and I heard of a tiny nude beach in a small coastal town, and went to check it out. A short but difficult walk later, we found it, with a couple of people in the water. But then on the way back to the car, on the main beach at the foot of the town's main street, sat a naked man in a meditation pose, facing the sun, unremarked and unmolested.
At a Rainbow Gathering where I felt as always free to be naked as the spirit moved me and was at the moment, going about my business, I noticed a group of older (which is to say, my age) people, two men and two women, finding a heavily trafficked spot and disrobing, looking around them with a certain smug / apprehensive smile, as if they felt they were doing something brave, or something challenging to the assembly. They were, doubtless, "nudists." And quite out of place - there was an invisible wall around them, which I did not cross.
ReactReply - JO
JohnMay 13, 2024Steve sums up my attitude on the subject. Whether the guy was a true nudist/naturist or just an exhibitionist doesn't make a lot of difference to me, as long as he wasn't flaunting his sexuality with an erection or, as StevieLorna put it, an anvil dangling from his junk. Similarly, if a woman was on the street in a bikini, she has the same legal status as a fully dressed woman, although she'd be inviting a lot more stares. Take the bikini away, and there's not a lot of difference.. you'd see a vulva and some nipples, which practically every female mammal on the planet has. So if the community isn't offended, I see no reason why she can't be naked as long as she's not deliberately sexualizing the situation.
The problem, you see, is that communities consider that any sort of nudism is "sexualizing" the situation. We know that isn't so. I would like to live in a world where a person can go naked, for whatever personal reasons. (I put on a robe every morning when I retrieve the newspaper from the front lawn. I would like to leave the robe in the closet and just go out there nude, and my activity would be just going outside, pickint up the paper, and going back inside. But my community would frown on that, and I could be arrested for "lascivious behavior.)
ReactReply - STStevieLornaMay 14, 2024
You can dress this up with personal stories or make excuses that if you are not acting in a sexual way then its fine the community shouldnt be alarmed at casual nudity in towns.
That is total bollocks, less than ten minutes walk from my front door there are two schools, itll be the same for most who live in towns and citys. imagine a naked man walking past a group of parents waiting to pick up their toddles from nursery/ kindergarten. Do you think that crown will see a naked man acting in a non sexual manner?
What if he says, its ok folks, Im a nudist. Is that painting our lifestyle in a positive manner?
If we want the wider community to accept nudism as a healthy non sexual pastime then you have to stand with the wider community and point out the weird behaviour of those who wish to abuse the lifestyle for their own sad gratification.
Oh and Woodsman, the girl in the bikini in the street not acting in a sexual manner, also irreverent because every hetro male will be sexualising her. Thats the world we live in.
And by that I mean bikinis are normal on the beach not at the bus stop on the high street.
ReactReply - EAEarlDMay 14, 2024
The fundamental issue IMO is the idea that anything and everything naked is considered nudism, as long as it usnt "sexual". So we make comments like "society considers any kind of nudism sexual". What is more accurate is society considers any kind of nudity sexual. That is the result of the promotion of the idea that public nudity is defacto nudism. Society defines what it sexual in public not the individual. An individual gets to define their idea of sexual in the private not public sphere.
Sadly this notion of individual nakedness as nudism does more harm than good for nudism overall. Just look at what happens on this site. New people drop into chat and their first question is who is naked? That's all they believe nudism is. Honesty I can't blame them google nudism and you get stuff about nakedness and naked pics not the people, principles and purpose of social nudism or naturism.
The general US society doesn't see any connection with life that makes sense to them. They don't see real people with real lived who prefer to live clothes free. They see individuals who want to be naked in public and push that in their faces. It makes us seem even weirder because there is no connection with social nudism. No amount of personal stories or individual incidents will change that because of the missing social movement with shared principles and values that can be expressed. All they see is an individual behavior that doesn't line up with anything that makes sense to them.
People who like to cite the UK as a good example of public nudity as nudism should look at the story of Stephen Goff who refused to wear clothing in public for many years and was arrested and jailed all over the UK for his solo travels though he exhibited no sexual behavior. He received no legal or other support from the national naturist organization because he was violating the law at the time.
Now the law around public nudity in UK has been clarified the national association still has guidelines around public nudity to make sure members remain within the letter of the law. If individuals behave in a way publicly that doesn't align with the guidelines they will likely not get much support. They understand that one individual's behavior can impact the perception of naturism in the eyes of the public.
What they have in the UK and most of Europe that is not in the US is socially active national associations that sponsor group events and promote principled social nudism and the benefits of naturism not just nakedness. That doesn't mean US groups aren't doing things but it's on a much smaller and limited scale that doesn't really create social capital to advance any view contrary to what many in society think. The US national organization only just help to avoid nudists in FL just escaped being caught in a law about massages that would have been applied massages in nudist venues. How many people knew about that law or heard what the US org did?
So when we laud and highlight incidents like the one in the OP we are deluding ourselves into thinking anything is achieved by that individual action that supports naturism/nudism as larger social activity.
ReactReply - STSteveMay 14, 2024[quote]The fundamental issue IMO is the idea that anything and everything naked is considered nudism, as long as it isn't "sexual".[/quote] True enough. Nudism is a very particular set of social conventions around group nudity, centered on the behave-as-if-dressed convention. It doesn't and can't, reach far enough to include gestures like St. Francis's disrobing before God, or somebody taking a selfie in their bathroom.ReactReply
- EAEarlDMay 14, 2024Your statement about the reach of nudism is prompting several questions for me. Does nudism need to reach to include gestures religious gestures and bathroom selfie or are there substantive lasting values or "social conventions" that can be embraced that allow nudism. To function as a distinct social movement but still be engaging. When I look at the early naturist movement that attracted so many who were willing to fight the legal system and dare to operate against the social conventions of the day (think the early life reform movement in Europe the naturist soviety movement from Marc Alain Descamps and much later the Feee beaches movement spearheaded by Lee Baxandall in the US all crafted a set of values and principles to underpin the social conventions you mention that engaged people and attract new participants to nudism/naturism . I am struck by the fact that in the times when the movement lacked leadership vision particularly in the US that was able to communicate an engaging vision and instead chose to attach to other movements like the free sex movement or more recently social media content creation. In those instances there has been a sharp decline in both participation and the positive public perception of nudism as a social movement. My second question is, if you think nudism reach does not cover a naked St Francis or a bathroom selfie. Why? Bear in mind St Francis did not disrobe just to disrobe and be naked. There was an intention behind his actions. What is the why behind a bathroom selfie? What does it tell me about the individuals behavior outside the confines of their bathroom? What does it tell me about what they hope achieve by taking the said selfie or nelfie as it has been called? Does it prove they are nudists? Does it suggest we have any values in common that may generate a connection? This is the flaw I see in the notion of nudism as nakedness. The intention and the action are one and the same to be naked. Even swingers have a set of values and conventions the adhere to. Why shouldn't nudism have the same? Why is it that nudists should eschew any values or principles beyond nakedness at the outside chance that an individual meeting naked will inspire another to also get naked? If it is the case and nakedness is the lowest common denominator, we shouldn't be surprised when other in the main read their own ideas of intent into the actions project them back on us. Unlike those I mention today's "nudist" give them nothing principled to think about and relate to regarding this new social convention. It's not about health, freedom, connecting to nature, or social connection in those contexts. It just getting naked. That makes a great social media slogan but doesn't IMO inspire adoption of a life changing way of life. We are social creatures living in an increasingly individualistic society. As nudism abandons all social conventions I fear the result will lead to the end of nudism and even greater stigmatization. Curious to hear additional perspectives on these points [quote] True enough. Nudism is a very particular set of social conventions around group nudity, centered on the behave-as-if-dressed convention. It doesn't and can't, reach far enough to include gestures like St. Francis's disrobing before God, or somebody taking a selfie in their bathroom.[/quote]ReactReply
- EAEarlDMay 14, 2024Your statement about the reach of nudism is prompting several questions for me. Does nudism need to reach to include gestures religious gestures and bathroom selfie or are there substantive lasting values or "social conventions" that can be embraced that allow nudism. To function as a distinct social movement but still be engaging. When I look at the early naturist movement that attracted so many who were willing to fight the legal system and dare to operate against the social conventions of the day (think the early life reform movement in Europe the naturist soviety movement from Marc Alain Descamps and much later the Feee beaches movement spearheaded by Lee Baxandall in the US all crafted a set of values and principles to underpin the social conventions you mention that engaged people and attract new participants to nudism/naturism . I am struck by the fact that in the times when the movement lacked leadership vision particularly in the US that was able to communicate an engaging vision and instead chose to attach to other movements like the free sex movement or more recently social media content creation. In those instances there has been a sharp decline in both participation and the positive public perception of nudism as a social movement. My second question is, if you think nudism reach does not cover a naked St Francis or a bathroom selfie. Why? Bear in mind St Francis did not disrobe just to disrobe and be naked. There was an intention behind his actions. What is the why behind a bathroom selfie? What does it tell me about the individuals behavior outside the confines of their bathroom? What does it tell me about what they hope achieve by taking the said selfie or nelfie as it has been called? Does it prove they are nudists? Does it suggest we have any values in common that may generate a connection? This is the flaw I see in the notion of nudism as nakedness. The intention and the action are one and the same to be naked. Even swingers have a set of values and conventions the adhere to. Why shouldn't nudism have the same? Why is it that nudists should eschew any values or principles beyond nakedness at the outside chance that an individual meeting naked will inspire another to also get naked? If it is the case and nakedness is the lowest common denominator, we shouldn't be surprised when other in the main read their own ideas of intent into the actions project them back on us. Unlike those I mention today's "nudist" give them nothing principled to think about and relate to regarding this new social convention. It's not about health, freedom, connecting to nature, or social connection in those contexts. It just getting naked. That makes a great social media slogan but doesn't IMO inspire adoption of a life changing way of life. We are social creatures living in an increasingly individualistic society. As nudism abandons all social conventions I fear the result will lead to the end of nudism and even greater stigmatization. Curious to hear additional perspectives on these points [quote] True enough. Nudism is a very particular set of social conventions around group nudity, centered on the behave-as-if-dressed convention. It doesn't and can't, reach far enough to include gestures like St. Francis's disrobing before God, or somebody taking a selfie in their bathroom.[/quote]ReactReply
- JOJohnMay 14, 2024stevieLorna wrote: [quote] If we want the wider community to accept nudism as a healthy non sexual pastime then you have to stand with the wider community and point out the weird behaviour of those who wish to abuse the lifestyle for their own sad gratification.[/quote] I agree. There's a time and a place for everything, and we have to respect the mores of the people around us. That's the way we get respect for our mores. A naked man parading in front of middle-school children is not doing our reputation any good. But we need to convince the community that, in our own domains, we see nothing wrong with having children see us naked, or children being naked in front of us. And we should be allowed to do that, within our own domains. And the larger community has to be more open to respecting those domains. Otherwise, there would be no nude beaches, no naked bike rides, no resorts, no areas where nudity is overlooked, if not actually sanctioned. [quote]Oh and Woodsman, the girl in the bikini in the street not acting in a sexual manner, also irreverent because every hetro male will be sexualising her. Thats the world we live in. And by that I mean bikinis are normal on the beach not at the bus stop on the high street.[/quote] Agreed. I was merely pointing out that the woman in a bikini at the bus stop is as legally clothed as the woman in a maxi-dress or a business suit. That's the distinction I was addressing. I was pointing out the absurdity of a cop saying, "Well, there's nothing I can do right now about it, but if she shows a nipple, that's different, and I can nick her." The recent upsurge in women's right to breast-feed in public is a reflection on the absurdity of that mind-set, and I consider the affirmation of that right to be a good sign.ReactReply
- EAEarlDMay 14, 2024Woodsman not sure what you mean by this which domains are you referring to? [quote]But we need to convince the community that, in our own domains, we see nothing wrong with having children see us naked, or children being naked in front of us. And we should be allowed to do that, within our own domains. [/quote] How do you imagine this will happen? [qoute]And the larger community has to be more open to respecting those domains. Otherwise, there would be no nude beaches, no naked bike rides, no resorts, no areas where nudity is overlooked, if not actually sanctioned..[/quote]ReactReply
- JOJohnMay 15, 2024homeclothesfree wrote: [quote]Woodsman not sure what you mean by this which domains are you referring to?[/quote] I meant "areas or environments where nudism is accepted, and there would be no legal restrictions to going nude." Community acceptance means that such environments are respected or at least tolerated by the community at large. [quote]How do you imagine this will happen?[/quote] A damn good question. Community outreach might be some way. Our local non-landed club had a booth at Sacramento's Earth Day celebration, where we handed out literature on AANR, TNS, and our local club. I don't know how many nudists we "recruited," but that wasn't the point. The point was just to let them know who we are and what we believe, and let them know that we were there. Another effective way was persuading the community that we have money to spend to improve it. When nudists were in the area of Haulover Beach, they paid whatever they could in two-dollar bills. When local businesses saw large numbers of these bills showing up in local banks and cash registers, they realized how much the nudists were contributing to the economy of their community. Other suggestions would be welcome.ReactReply