If ones god is so wise...

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• JU

  

  JustBarb

  Dec 19, 2010

  The problem being, we as humans are not perfect and never will be. As such, our language is also imperfect. And languages evolve. As holy scriptures (or any sort) are translated into various languages, sometimes words are mis-translated (ie one word has several meanings and it was accidentally translated with the wrong meaning). Also as our languages are ever-changing, sometimes what a word meant ages ago, is not what it means now.
  I recall a bible study where a place is referred to as "being in shambles" which in modern day english means its a mess and dilapidated. But that is not what 'shambles' meant years ago, so in that context, folks reading it today would misunderstand the meaning.
  Basically all my rambling is to simply say - language is a funny creature, and often things get misunderstood or miscontrued. Not only in religion, but in all aspects of life.
  ~Barb~

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• CA

  

  catbird

  Dec 19, 2010

  [quote]The problem being, we as humans are not perfect and never will be. As such, our language is also imperfect. And languages evolve. As holy scriptures (or any sort) are translated into various languages, sometimes words are mis-translated (ie one word has several meanings and it was accidentally translated with the wrong meaning). Also as our languages are ever-changing, sometimes what a word meant ages ago, is not what it means now. I recall a bible study where a place is referred to as "being in shambles" which in modern day english means its a mess and dilapidated. But that is not what 'shambles' meant years ago, so in that context, folks reading it today would misunderstand the meaning. Basically all my rambling is to simply say - language is a funny creature, and often things get misunderstood or miscontrued. Not only in religion, but in all aspects of life. ~Barb~[/quote] Another example of changed word meanings is John 14:1, "In my father's house are many mansions" (King James Version).  But the more modern versions say something like, "In my father's house are many rooms."  At the time of King James, a mansion was a dwelling place.  Today a mansion is a very opulent huge house, that only the wealthy can afford.

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• CA

  

  catbird

  Dec 19, 2010

  [quote]"If your god is powerful and wise, why did he -in some cases-create, or allow others to create, a religious book that is so ambiguous people all around the world read it and take diferent meanings from it? [/quote] The Bible is a very beautiful work of literature.  Each person's faith is very personal to to him/her.  Scripture very often means different things to different people.  It is "How does the Bible speak to you?"  I don't believe in the straight jacket of a literally inerrant Bible. I also believe that some mystery is healthy spiritually.  There will always be questions about what the Bible meant.  Did Jesus really walk on water?

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• ME

  Member

  Dec 19, 2010

  The earth and all that is in and about it exists to allow persons to analyze and make decisions as to what they personally believe, or disbelieve according to what ever efforts they take to come to their own conclusions. A relationship between your God is a personal one, and to everyone there will be a day of reckoning when we each as individuals will give account of our actions in life. Just because one chooses to belong to a given denomination and/or organization is not a free pass to the big pie in the sky, a denomination can not save you, but only a personal relationship with your creator can.

  Some choose to think they can avoid any responsibility for their actions on earth and accountabilities, for these believe that we have all come to existence by chance, and not by intelligent design. We have only to state what the top intellectual researchers of science say, the odds of all we see and experience in the physical realm (things many of us refer to as the created) to have just happened by chance is the equivalency to setting a hydrogen bomb off under a large garbage dump, and having the debris fall down to form into a  brand new Bowing 767 ready for take off.

  Creation by intelligent divine design is sound and the book called THE HOLY BIBLE is the instructions for all creation. Bible Scripture is accurate! however many who read it interpret it in a manner to suit their own likes and dislikes, thus causing confusions, God is not the author of confusion, seek truth and you can find it in Christ Jesus. The idea we evolved from a couple of lovesick ameba is as dumb as the author who was busted by DNA test results of his fake missing link collection of bones from different animals, aka Darwin's theory, Darwin is dead and he is not coming back.

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• VI

  

  VixOriginal Poster

  Dec 20, 2010

  [quote]ok, the posts I've read so far haven't really addressed the question you asked. . If I don't die in an explosion tomorrow, I'll look forward to seeing how this discussion develops.[/quote]  Absolutely superb intelligent answer but i'm still not sure you clearly addressed the question, you see if i ask any reader who believes in a particular god why his god allows any other, or other belief, why is his god not clear an defined in his teachings to leave only one belief for all to follow? You see you propose several times "i suggest" that people follow the god of love,  my whole point is shouldn't a real god, if he exists, be directing all to this unambigous view anyway? Others talk about "god" giving man free will to make his/her mind up themselves, this seems a totally bizarre answer to me, suggesting god in his wisdom allows all to argue over his teachings? Others, yourself included, mention how disciples etc wrote down his teachings and the meaning got watered down/lost in translation, but thats my whole point, why did he allow that knowing it will create  confrontation, separatism and extremism?

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• PH

  

  Philfreeeuk

  Dec 20, 2010

  Excellent post vince, now all we have to do, is just make everyone else understand.Maybe he just realised, that the human race would develop an intelligence, far superior to all the other two million odd life forms on the planet. An intelligence that could and would, be able to overcome the laws of nature that normally control the populations of all the other life forms. So he needed a spanner to through in the works. An inbuilt self-destruct mechanism that would prevent human overpopulation and the ultimate demise of the planet and all the other species.   btw, you might find this thread interesting.http://www.truenudists.com/forum/viewthread.php?id=6373

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• BI

  

  billez

  Dec 20, 2010

  I always think that it's funny how the ones who have extreme views and say the Bible (or whatever book they read) is the absolute word of their god and not subject to interpritation. Then they spout out some weird comment that you know isn't actually true. Christians and Jews refer to the 10 Commandmants, there are many more than 10 (200+) so why do they only mention 10 or is it because they don't want to have to stone their disobedient children to death!! I saw a TV program that was following a 13 year old evangelist she thought the whole world had sinned and everyone was going to hell, in one conversation she said she didn't drink because the Bible says not to - where and what about the 'water into wine' story!!
  Here's one to think about, if sex is only supposed to be used for reproduction why is it that the 'system' works the way it does. Surely it would be more efficient for an egg to be released when the man ejaculates so it is more successful. The current system is so inefficient that it requires a lot more sex than may otherwise be needed - If I had a designer working for me and he came up with that one I'd sack him - not very intelligent!!
  Other things you need to remember, the New Testiment was put together by people who wanted to make a point, there were other Christian groups around at the time but they was persecuted by the Roman church. There were over 30 Gospels written, the editors of the Bible chose 4 that had the same message (although 3 of them were probably based on the 4th in the first place).
  Also, it doesn't matter which religion you are part of, you are in a minority or in other words if you are correct in your beliefs the majority of the World are wrong - a betting man would say you have odds of around 6:1 that you are right!!

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• UK

  

  UKrudegirl

  Dec 20, 2010

  We used to get regularly accosted by local god botherers who would exhort me to 'change my ways'.  I would always quote them Luke 15:7 from the King James Bible"I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.- just consider me as racking up the joy points in preparation for the day."Love n stuffRudie x

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• RO

  

  Roosterock

  Dec 20, 2010

  You could have a l00 people see an accident, watch a movie, or read a book and each one would have a different view.
  I would much rather believe in god and find out there isn't one than to not believe and find out there is one.  For those that do not believe how did the bible know the earth was not flat or there were mountains under the ocean a couple thousand years before scientist figured it out?  And if humans came out of the sea like scientist say, which was made first the skin, lungs, heart or blood.  How was the blood and sea water kept seperate until it had veins

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• CD

  

  Cheri Donna Dawson

  Dec 20, 2010

  God gave us free will to make mistakes or not. There are definitely more than one book called the Bible.  The Torah contains the 5 Books of Moses =is the first of three parts of theTanakh(Hebrew Bible), the founding religious document of Judaism and is divided into five books, whose names in English areGenesis,Exodus,Leviticus,Numbers, andDeuteronomy.   According to Jewish tradition the Torah was revealed to Moses in 1312 BCE atMount Sinai;[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torah#cite_note-Timeline-6][/url] (another date given for this event is 1280 BCE).  Then there is the Midrash, the Hebrew term for "Interpretation."    The word generally used for any written or oral commentary on the biblical text.  The original purpose was to resolve problems in the Hebrew text.

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• VI

  

  VixOriginal Poster

  Dec 20, 2010

  [quote]God gave us free will to make mistakes or not. [/quote] [quote]I rest my case, then if "god" does exist he is not so clever then, as to allow free will and understanding of his  doctrine to cause persecution, death, wars etc etc[/quote]

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• VI

  

  VixOriginal Poster

  Dec 20, 2010

  [quote]An earlier post had a comment about intelligent design that I cannot allow to go unchecked. Shame on you for thinking that it is 'dumb' to believe that life today has evolved through millions of years from humble origins. There is overwhelming evidence to show that natural selection is entirely credible, evidence that is peer reviewed and open to debate in the best scientific tradition.Not so intelligent design.[/quote]    I'm sorry my friend this is a little over my intelligence, can you explain it in more layman like terms for my slow brain. Natural Selection? Peer reviewed?

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• ME

  Member

  Dec 20, 2010

  Why would one's god, wise or otherwise, care about either a single person or humanity as a whole? Assuming that there is a vested interest, perhaps said god merely views us as a science experiment in much the same manner that we view lab rats? We have been given a variety of religions and even now the god could be observing to determine which is the most effective. Considering the god in a positive light, it may be that as soon as the experiment is completed that there will be some awe-inspiring event that will clearly dictate which religion to follow. On the other hand, it could simply be an entertaining way to pass the time much like a cat plays with its food.
  
  Okay that was fun. Now, considering the original question some possible answers include:
  Humans are too fragile to handle an absolute way of life.
  God is more concerned with freedom of choice than blind obedience.
  God wants us to think for ourselves so that we are better prepared for what comes next.
  God has a nasty sense of humour.
  I could go on but believe that I have blasphemied enough for now.

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• CO

  

  Curt, or Cowboy

  Dec 20, 2010

  I will submit Revelation 2:29 and let it go at that.
  ( and it's not so obvious, either )

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• DE

  

  debeachbear

  Dec 20, 2010

  God is perfectly clear.  it's only humankind that insists on listening in words.

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• DE

  

  debeachbear

  Dec 20, 2010

  [quote]The answer is he gave us free will.  You get to make the choice.  God's word...the bible.[/quote]  isn't this an oximoron?

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• DE

  

  debeachbear

  Dec 20, 2010

  [quote][quote]If God gave us one direction, we would end up lemmings & jump of a cliff in that same one direction.  God speaks, we all listen.  And through the telephone-game....  We all screwed up his message! My favorite part.  God created Darwin![/quote]  What's the telephone-game and where can I buy it? Is it available for the Xbox? I assume this is not a troll, you're favourite part [of the bible I assume] is that god created Darwin. I applaud Charles Darwin, a free thinker and scientist. I don't applaud Adolf Hitler, et al, because these people who committed the most horrific of crimes against humanity are somehow glossed over. I'd like an explanation, based on fact.[/quote] i think that lg2001hit was making 3 points: 1) that if God didn't allow for diversity, we all would be like lemmings doing exactly the same thing at the same time. 2) the 'telephone-game' starts a verbal message at the beginning of a line of people. that message is repeated from person to person along the line, until it reaches the last person in a corrupted, unintelligible state (i think his commentary on religions).  and 3) how ironic: God did create Darwin.  hmmm... as for Hitler:  what a horrendous error of diversity.

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• DE

  

  debeachbear

  Dec 21, 2010

  vincentertainment:  amen

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• VI

  

  VixOriginal Poster

  Dec 21, 2010

  Well I know one part of me that looks like it could  be decended from a banana .[/quote]   I have seen your picture trust me its the Gorilla!!! lol

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• VI

  

  VixOriginal Poster

  Dec 21, 2010

  [quote]  When we love Him  unconditionally, then we give Him something of immense value. When we love each other unconditionally, then we are truly 'created in His image.'[/quote]     Enjoyable read Vince, as an Atheist i leave my self open to being persuaded into being an agnostic, but as yet no one has come up with any proof there is indeed a "greater being" out there that has created man kind, questions such as "If there is a heaven how big is it as there must be billions of souls now residing there""Where exactly is hell and how big is that?" "Why are the religious books of all the gods so ambiguous to allow separatism, radicalism etc etc" And the only answer is he gave us free will, allowing mistakes so that he can offer unconditional love. To me thats a total cop out. Let me tell you my theory... the books were/are created by normal homo sapiens who wished to worship what they percieved as a "greater being" as they searched for the meaning of life, their further will to believe that there is life after death as opposed to an eternity of nothingness,(is that a word?lol)  that there must be a greater power out there, somewhere in the universe,  all this with no proof no sightings no tangible evidence, only the stories told up to two thousand years ago, no modern sightings no modern day resurrections no modern day miracles no armageddon indeed no god!!! etc etc etc Amen

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• CO

  

  Curt, or Cowboy

  Dec 21, 2010

  [quote] The idea we evolved from a couple of lovesick ameba is as dumb as the author who was busted by DNA test results of his fake missing link collection of bones from different animals, aka Darwin's theory, Darwin is dead and he is not coming back.[/quote] I dunno.... The God in which I put my faith is more than capable of using just such a means, and with a sense of humor as well.

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• VI

  

  VixOriginal Poster

  Dec 22, 2010

  [quote][quote][quote]  When we love Him  unconditionally, then we give Him something of immense value. When we love each other unconditionally, then we are truly 'created in His image.'[/quote]           I'm just saying study the bible a little, think about it.  If you are wrong it could be really big.  Just look around you'll find the miracles.[/quote]   Without wanting to sound a bore thats my point again, if i study the bible i could take a whole different meaning to it than yourself, in "his" wisdom he allowed all to take different meanings to his teachings, that doesn't make sense does it? As regard to looking around you for a miracle, anyone can label an everyday occurrence (the birth of a child), an accident survivor or more rarities such as a cancer survivor and label it as a miracle, i dont see how a god can take credit for such things -particularly as in the case of the survivor he must have caused/given the accident/cancer in the first place! Finally, why doesn't ones god show himself sometime over the last two thousand years? Indeed he hasn't been seen, nor even seen then when the story started, only someone claiming to be his son, we find a long lost tribe deep in the amazon jungle waking up every morning and worshipping the sun as their god and laugh at them, yet they see their god everyday, in the so called "civilised" world the educated religious followers have never seen theirs, no disrespect intended, but who's laughing at who?

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• VI

  

  VixOriginal Poster

  Dec 23, 2010

  It seems such a simple question causes so much trouble for religious people to answer, but i do understand why.

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• ME

  Member

  Dec 23, 2010

  [quote][quote][/quote]Enjoyable read Vince, as an Atheist i leave my self open to being persuaded into being an agnostic, but as yet no one has come up with any proof there is indeed a "greater being" out there that has created man kind, questions such as "If there is a heaven how big is it as there must be billions of souls now residing there""Where exactly is hell and how big is that?" "Why are the religious books of all the gods so ambiguous to allow separatism, radicalism etc etc" And the only answer is he gave us free will, allowing mistakes so that he can offer unconditional love. To me thats a total cop out. Let me tell you my theory... the books were/are created by normal homo sapiens who wished to worship what they percieved as a "greater being" as they searched for the meaning of life, their further will to believe that there is life after death as opposed to an eternity of nothingness,(is that a word?lol)  that there must be a greater power out there, somewhere in the universe,  all this with no proof no sightings no tangible evidence, only the stories told up to two thousand years ago, no modern sightings no modern day resurrections no modern day miracles no armageddon indeed no god!!! etc etc etc Amen[/quote] The last I checked, which was admittedly many years ago the Big Bang Theory, not the tv show people :), could provide realistic approximations of how the universe evolved from milliseconds after it came into existence. However, science could not uncover the actual beginning or the "something from nothing" that was posted earlier. Since I also cannot fathom how the universe started within the boundaries of science, I figure something "beyond" created that initial spark. What I do not understand is why most people believe that the something "beyond" has to be sentient?

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