The Constitution, The Second Amendment and BHO

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• SO

  

  Soupie

  Feb 26, 2013

  Nothing seems to stop you from making a fool of yourself.  But a fool and his gun are seldom parted.

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• FF

  

  FF32404

  Feb 26, 2013

  SteveinKona, I'm sure this woman thanked her landlord!
  http://www.gunsandammo.com/2013/02/25/87-year-old-shoots-man-attacking-pregnant-woman/?utm_source=ENL-GA&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Daily+Newsletters&utm_term=02-26-13
  
  
  

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• SO

  

  Soupie

  Feb 26, 2013

  Ah, a quote from "guns and ammo".  They don't want people to buy guns do they?

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• ST

  

  Steve

  Feb 26, 2013

  On that same day - February 13 - at least 20 people in the US were shot to death, and at least 313 then to now. You can check out the list here:
  
  http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/crime/2012/12/gun_death_tally_every_american_gun_death_since_newtown_sandy_hook_shooting.html
  
  "argument in residence" "domestic dispute," and so forth.
  
  If airbags killed three hundred people for every one they saved, would we install them in our cars?
  
  As to gratitude: If a boulder rolls across the road, smashes a car that would otherwise have hit me, and then goes on to wipe out a few hundred folks downhill, should I feel grateful? I'd feel shaken, and I'd feel compassion for the dead.
  
  In the case you cited, if I were the woman, I'm sure I'd be glad to be alive, and I'd appreciate the intent behind the intervention. Particularly if the assailant had died, I'd also regret that he'd died at a moment of delusion and insanity, and I'd be concerned for the shooter.  Killing somebody, for real, isn't easy. That's why police who do so are put on leave. That's why drone pilots, who are never in danger, still get post-traumatic stress disorder.
  
  We are troubled by wild pigs in our area. I've put up a fence. One of our neighbors is un-fenced, but has used our back fence as a blind from which to shoot the pigs. Am I grateful for that? Not really, even though he's addressing a problem that affects us as well. I appreciate the intent, but believe there's a less violent way to the same result.
  
  

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• ST

  

  Steve

  Feb 26, 2013

  True, the data are incomplete, which means theyunderstatethe death toll. I did not cite the number since Sandy Hook (although that data set I drew from includes deaths back to then) but the deaths since the February 13 incident you cited. I checked the original news sources for just a couple of those, which proved to be deaths of people who weren't "bad guys", thereby outnumbering your example.  I also trustyourdata sources - Guns & Ammo, for sure, and likely Fox News, unless I miss my guess - to have scoured the same news sources for any "saving of the innocents" scenarios.
  
  We all die. Any death is to be regretted. And I would say that's it's better to die on your best behavior, rather than in the course of a criminal act. So - simply speaking personally, since your original question about gratitude was an essentially personal one - I'd feel compassion for the person who died in what was likely one of his most sinful / least mindful (pick your religion) moments.
  
  As a gesture of neighborly cooperation, we invited our neighbor to use our place and our stone-wall fence as cover for his shooting. So no, I don't condemn him. I just have another way of dealing with it.
  

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• FF

  

  FF32404

  Feb 26, 2013

  [quote]True, the data are incomplete, which means theyunderstatethe death toll. I did not cite the number since Sandy Hook (although that data set I drew from includes deaths back to then) but the deaths since the February 13 incident you cited. I checked the original news sources for just a couple of those, which proved to be deaths of people who weren't "bad guys", thereby outnumbering your example.  I also trustyourdata sources - Guns & Ammo, for sure, and likely Fox News, unless I miss my guess - to have scoured the same news sources for any "saving of the innocents" scenarios.
  
  We all die. Any death is to be regretted. And I would say that's it's better to die on your best behavior, rather than in the course of a criminal act. So - simply speaking personally, since your original question about gratitude was an essentially personal one - I'd feel compassion for the person who died in what was likely one of his most sinful / least mindful (pick your religion) moments.
  
  As a gesture of neighborly cooperation, we invited our neighbor to use our place and our stone-wall fence as cover for his shooting. So no, I don't condemn him. I just have another way of dealing with it.
  [/quote]I believe the "Data is incomplete" would mean that the circumstances behind the deaths were not known or not given.  This makes the story irrelevant because the utopian wish of no guns no crime is impossible period.

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• FF

  

  FF32404

  Feb 26, 2013

  [quote]True, the data are incomplete, which means theyunderstatethe death toll. I did not cite the number since Sandy Hook (although that data set I drew from includes deaths back to then) but the deaths since the February 13 incident you cited. I checked the original news sources for just a couple of those, which proved to be deaths of people who weren't "bad guys", thereby outnumbering your example.  I also trustyourdata sources - Guns & Ammo, for sure, and likely Fox News, unless I miss my guess - to have scoured the same news sources for any "saving of the innocents" scenarios.
  
  We all die. Any death is to be regretted. And I would say that's it's better to die on your best behavior, rather than in the course of a criminal act. So - simply speaking personally, since your original question about gratitude was an essentially personal one - I'd feel compassion for the person who died in what was likely one of his most sinful / least mindful (pick your religion) moments.
  
  As a gesture of neighborly cooperation, we invited our neighbor to use our place and our stone-wall fence as cover for his shooting. So no, I don't condemn him. I just have another way of dealing with it.
  [/quote]I believe the "Data is incomplete" would mean that the circumstances behind the deaths were not known or not given.  This makes the story irrelevant because the utopian wish of no guns no crime is impossible period.

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• SO

  

  Soupie

  Feb 26, 2013

  "Kumbaya!!!  Let me guess, You are Anti-Death Penalty but Pro-Abortion right?"
  
  Really?  Not snarky?  Not mocking and making assumptions that have nothing to do with the subject?  Seems very troll-like to me.  As for Gassy, well, he's just a joke.  I'm a progressive, but I certainly don't want a gun, so he is lying again.

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• DE

  

  DesertRatOriginal Poster

  Feb 26, 2013

  We now have over 16 pages of drivel that completely misses the point of my original post. My original post reads:
  
  
  
  I believe that the things happening today in Washington is the start of a long slide into losing our republic. The Constitution is the framework of our republic and BHO wants to chip away at that. If he succeeds in repudiating our rights under the second amendment, what will his next target be? Will we no longer be secure in our homes, papers and personal effects? Will we not be able to peacefully assemble? Will we need to be wary of what we say and who we say it to? Can we be arrested and imprisoned without due process?
  
  
  
  If he succeeds in this one thing, we will no longer have a republic but a dictatorship, or government by the elite. Many people have sacrificed their lives and fortunes to retain the republic and I believe there are many out there who would still be willing to stand up to protect those rights. BHO has not just attempted to throw out a part of the Constitution. I believe he has also sown the seeds of a revolution.
  
  
  
  May God bless and preserve the United States of America.
  
  
  
  I tried to explain it further in Post 133 where I said.
  
  
  
  For those who study the Constitution it is important to read The Federalist Papers. These are the writings and thoughts of the framers of the Constitution and what was their intent for each article. They were breaking away from a very tyrannical type of government and they wanted to make sure that this did not happen again. They therefore wanted the people to be able to defend themselves against a dictatorial overthrow BY THE GOVERNMENT. This is, in a nut shell, the reason behind the Second Amendment.
  
  
  
  If you look back over history you'll see many examples where a despot comes into power, by what ever means, and one of the first orders of business is to disarm the populace. You can find many examples of this at jpfo.org .
  
  
  
  Gun rights is not the issue here. Freedom is the issue. What we are discussing is our American way of life and if we will continue to keep it and have it in the future.
  
  

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• SO

  

  Soupie

  Feb 26, 2013

  Really?  Do you think that your guns are going to be taken away?  You would have to be mentally ill to think that.  It's not or never going to happen.  You love your guns more than your children.  Let's be realistic.  When you are quoting "Guns and Ammo" magazine, you know what the lay of the land is.  Yes, the U.S. is a paradise.  Everyone wants to be there.  Yes indeed.

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• ST

  

  Steve

  Feb 26, 2013

  The American Way of Life, including the world's highest per-capita gun ownership rate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country) is not in jeopardy.
  
  You speak of Obama as if he were all-powerful (and as if you knew his mind.) If you are among the 47% of US adults who live in a gun-owning household, is he, personally, going to come to your door to take the gun away? Who, then? The Phoenix police? Maricopa County Sherriff? Arizona State Troopers? The US military? None of them. Not even close.
  
  I like guns less that most of the other Americans on this thread, but my only argument has been that keeping a gun around may not be such a good idea, not thatthey(who?) should take them away.  I'm not going to vote for a government authoritarian enough to, somehow, contrive a force sufficient to go door-to-door seizing guns. Nor are you.Who are the voters you're afraid of?Certainly none of them have appeared in this forum. Even40% of Democrats say they own guns!
  
  My personal hope is that the American gun culture that sees guns as a political weapon and problem-solving tool, will change, not that the government will conduct a revolution from above. There is no real constituency for the loss-of-republic outcome you fear.
  
  

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• ST

  

  Steve

  Feb 27, 2013

  The force you're talking about, Gasman, isn't even armed, and includes volunteers in a wide variety of roles, in a wide variety of agencies. Here's a link that givesthe actual speechfrom which the relevant scare quotes were pulled.
  
  I share your concern for civil liberties, and vigilance is needed. But things have been way worse - under Presidents Adams, Wilson, Nixon, and arguably FDR (especially if you were Japanese).
  

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• SO

  

  Soupie

  Feb 27, 2013

  https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=454048427994999&set=a.374536155946227.83663.374534062613103&type=1&theater
  

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• FF

  

  FF32404

  Feb 27, 2013

  [quote]https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=454048427994999&set=a.374536155946227.83663.374534062613103&type=1&theater
  [/quote]Ah so "Mrs. Facts" is where you are getting most of your Talking Points from?

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• FF

  

  FF32404

  Feb 27, 2013

  The True Story behind the AR-15.  At least one MSM news agency searched to find the real information behind the gun that is one of the most popular rifles in America.
  http://www.wtnh.com//dpp/on_air/links_on_tv/special-report-firearm-facts#.US4SyKVkvb8
  
  Save your BS comments about Colt being the one to provide the facts because when it comes to firearms, the firearm industry provides the expertise on them.  Note that the CT State police were also involved in this story.
  

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• SO

  

  Soupie

  Feb 27, 2013

  Spare us your snarkiness and anger.  I'm convinced that you may go on a gun rampage one of these days.

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• SO

  

  Soupie

  Feb 27, 2013

  Ah, then why does Wayne LaPierre say that background checks are useless?  I will never understand you gun nuts.

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• FF

  

  FF32404

  Feb 27, 2013

  [quote]Ah, then why does Wayne LaPierre say that background checks are useless?  I will never understand you gun nuts.[/quote]He did NOT say background checks are useless, he said that expanding it to include all private sales will have no effect on preventing what happened in Sandy Hook and others.  It's more red tape that is taking a "Non problem" and making it into a problem just for politicians to make people believe they are doing something, but still not addressing the other real problems.  Once again, expanding the background checks will still not address the mental illness problem nor will anything else.  Instead, people like you would rather just assume we are the nutty ones!  I know you keep trying but you can't win this argument, so you should just stop trying!

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• FF

  

  FF32404

  Feb 27, 2013

  [quote]I will stop trying.  I'm very concerned about your mental health and the fact that you will probably use a gun in your lifetime to take an innocent life.[/quote]Please leave this forum!  You are nothing but a Troll!

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• CH

  

  Christopher

  Feb 27, 2013

  [quote][quote]I will stop trying.  I'm very concerned about your mental health and the fact that you will probably use a gun in your lifetime to take an innocent life.[/quote]Please leave this forum!  You are nothing but a Troll!  [/quote]As usual, the right wingnuts wish to silence the opposition. FF is most certainly out of touch with the rest of his state when it comes to gun control. Perhaps the population of CT should ask him to remove himself.
  (I fully expect FF to disagree with each and every poll that has come out of CT since the tragedy in Sandy Hook.)

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• FF

  

  FF32404

  Feb 27, 2013

  [quote][quote][quote]I will stop trying.  I'm very concerned about your mental health and the fact that you will probably use a gun in your lifetime to take an innocent life.[/quote]Please leave this forum!  You are nothing but a Troll!  [/quote]As usual, the right wingnuts wish to silence the opposition. FF is most certainly out of touch with the rest of his state when it comes to gun control. Perhaps the population of CT should ask him to remove himself.
  (I fully expect FF to disagree with each and every poll that has come out of CT since the tragedy in Sandy Hook.)[/quote]Poor Topher, good thing we still are governing this country and states on a Constitutional Republic instead of a Democracy Majority Rule!  The Constitution and the Bill Of Rights is not negotiable and the term "Shall NOT be Infringed" is Clear.  If you don't like it, you are free to solicit Congress to initiate the Amendment Process but until then, these un-scientific polls are useless and inaccurate!
  Ben Franklin Said it best: "A Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner! Liberty is a well armed Lamb contesting the results"

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• SO

  

  Soupie

  Feb 27, 2013

  Well, now I can't leave because a troll told me to.  And that troll is packin' heat!  He's headed for the water tower now.

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• SO

  

  Soupie

  Feb 27, 2013

  And balling like a Glenn Beck baby!  As usual, the far right fringe has no humour, and no sense.

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• CH

  

  Christopher

  Feb 28, 2013

  [quote]And balling like a Glenn Beck baby!  As usual, the far right fringe has no humour, and no sense.[/quote]And they are also blind. Just as the errr umm unsophisticated have made televangelists millionaires, the wingnuts have made their heros millionaires. If the ilk of the corpulent Hillbilly Heroin addicted Limp Dick; the turn on those tears recovering(?) alcoholic Beck, and the anti-government worker ex-worker Levin stoppe saying, in true Chicken Little fashion that "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" their minions would stop making them millionaires many times over. There is no difference between the Tea Baggers hero's and televangelists selling snake oil.

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