A modest legal proposal

Replies

• TD

  

  Tom D

  Feb 17, 2022

  [quote]Anyone who has been around these forums and groups for a while knows that there are a wide range of laws and regulations regarding nudity in various locations and that many of us may just occasionally be in slight violation of those legislative mandates. In a lot of cases we can do that without meeting others or, if occasionally we do, they often accept that and we all move on. Meanwhile, there few places where universal nudity is accepted and that is unlikely to change anytime soon. My local legislation says not to show the genitals or anus in a public place or anywhere visible from a public place. So I could legally tan naked in my back yard even if my neighbour has a view, while I cannot do the same on my from lawn as I don't have a fence. My neighbour may or may not be happy about what I do in my backyard but the Law is not concerned at that point. We can discuss it, if it comes to that. Yet I can be in a place where almost no one can be seen for miles around (until they come over that rise) and still be legally restricted. I'd be happy if it law was kept as it is, except for those areas that are less busy. My suggestion: Nudity is permitted where there is no visible habitable structure (home, business) within 400m/0.25 miles. Is there a better compromise? I'd love to hear some thoughts![/quote] What about within view of a busy rural highway?

  ReactReply
• ST

  

  SteveOriginal Poster

  Feb 17, 2022

  By minimalist75:
  
  [quote]What about within view of a busy rural highway?[/quote]
  
  Good point. That didn't come into my mind at the time I was thinking this, as I was on a quiet beach considering nearby fences containing cattle, a windmill serving a drinking trough, a nearby lookout point and the expanse of water before me where fishermen sometimes go. Habitable buildings seems a good starting point
  
  I didn't want to exclude walking trails, but then there's all types of roads from foot trails to motorways. Baring all on a pedestrian overpass over a busy freeway is different to an quiet country road with no residences or a railtrail. Perhaps include visible national and state highways?

  ReactReply
• PA

  

  Paul

  Feb 17, 2022

  Of course, I would go with most of Oregon, Vermont, and (all of?) Kansas -- where nudity is not illegal. Actually, it would be even better to have nudity declared an inalienable right. In my dreams. Failing that, instead of habitable building, a location not within sight more than x number of people per day averaged over the previous 7 days. That's probably too complicated and would be difficult to prove exactly how many people were within sight of your location -- but the point is, if it's a low traffic area, then your good. Age, sex, race, skin color, sexual history, religious affiliation, sexual orientation, etc. of nude person and possible observers are all totally irrelevant. "Yes, but the person was a 10-year-old virgin* from Pakistan where nudity is culturally/religiously unacceptable." "Not my problem." *Virgins areALWAYSfemale -- males are not virgins; males are celibate.

  ReactReply
• FU

  

  FullSun

  Feb 17, 2022

  California doesnt have a law against nudity at the state level either. The indecent exposure law require nudity AND intentional exposure AND lewd act. However, that doesnt mean if someone wanted to stop you they might not try and get you on disorderly conduct or something even though those do not apply to simple nudity.

  ReactReply
• PA

  

  Paul

  Feb 17, 2022

  Kansas also lacks a state-wide anti-nudity law. [quote] California doesnt have a law against nudity at the state level either. The indecent exposure law require nudity AND intentional exposure AND lewd act. However, that doesnt mean if someone wanted to stop you they might not try and get you on disorderly conduct or something even though those do not apply to simple nudity. [/quote] But in Kansas, nudity is not socially acceptable. If you're merely nude, someone is very likely to report you. The most likely outcome is that the police will leave you alone, But with a social climate strongly opposed to nudity, it's not a good place to be nude. California's social climate towards nudity is somewhat better, but, for the most part, not a great place to be nude.

  ReactReply
• PA

  

  Paul

  Feb 17, 2022

  Entropy Boy* ([url][link]https://www.truenudists.com/user/BlgDudeMan/[/link]BlgDudeMan[/url]) strikes again. [quote]*Virgins are ALWAYS female -- males are not virgins; males are celibate.This statement is nonsense, a made up fact by the poster or just ignorance.Both words have different meanings and neither are gender specific.[/quote] * Believes entropy is a super power.

  ReactReply
• NU

  nudeyooper

  Feb 17, 2022

  According to Merriam Webster Dictionary
  A virgin is a person who has not yet had sexual intercourse.
  A celibate is a person who is not engaging in sexual intercourse.
  
  Both male and female persons as well as animals can be virgins and celibates could have lost their virginity and then turned to a life without sexual intercourse. A celibate too can be either male or female. The term virgin can also refer to a person who has not yet engaged in an activity. A virgin nudist could be one who has yet to enjoy a nudist resort.

  ReactReply
• PA

  

  Paul

  Feb 17, 2022

  Exactly. [quote] I heard a similar story about a woman who complained that she could see her neighbor who complained that her neighbor would swim and sun nude in his yard, When the police arrived they questioned how she knew that when he had a high privacy fence. She replied that when she stood on the picnic table she could see him. [/quote] Heard that one, too. Put your binoculars away.

  ReactReply
• PA

  

  Paul

  Feb 17, 2022

  Those are recent changes to the definitions of those words. Language either changes or dies. The complaint only comes when those changes are based on lack of knowledge or the inability to learn. [quote]According to Merriam Webster Dictionary A virgin is a person who has not yet had sexual intercourse. A celibate is a person who is not engaging in sexual intercourse. Both male and female persons as well as animals can be virgins and celibates could have lost their virginity and then turned to a life without sexual intercourse. A celibate too can be either male or female.[/quote]

  ReactReply
• ME

  Member

  Feb 17, 2022

  Privacy in your own home??? Tell that to City Code Enforcement with their binoculars looking for err umm code violations lol!

  ReactReply
• ST

  

  SteveOriginal Poster

  Feb 18, 2022

  By mensasnem: [quote]Of course, I would go with most of Oregon, Vermont, and (all of?) Kansas -- where nudity is not illegal. [/quote] Ah, but for those of us who don't have such privelidges... ;-) [quote]Failing that, instead of habitable building, a location not within sight more than x number of people per day averaged over the previous 7 days. That's probably too complicated and would be difficult to prove exactly how many people were within sight of your location -- but the point is, if it's a low traffic area, then your good.[/quote] As you say, complications make things, err, complicated. I'm thinking about what's the best definition that would work in a statute for those of us that feel anywhere, anytime would beat bridge too far for the wider community. Definitions in terms of minimum distances from certain types of structures sounds reasonably clear to me. [quote]But in Kansas, nudity is not socially acceptable. If you're merely nude, someone is very likely to report you. The most likely outcome is that the police will leave you alone, But with a social climate strongly opposed to nudity, it's not a good place to be nude.[/quote] That's likely to be the case in many places, I guess, and would be less likely to change overnight, but having a legal base that's more permissive than the status quo is a step in the right direction. At least the police could focus on more beneficial priorities! In general, the Law should reflect the expectations of those affected by the Law, but perhaps the Law can better reflect the expectations. The practical counterpoint to that is how often laws are changed solely due to the dedicated efforts of a small group of people. The change of the nudity laws in Britian come to mind.

  ReactReply
• ST

  

  SteveOriginal Poster

  Feb 18, 2022

  By milwaukeew: [quote]In America, and I know you are in Australia but hope the law is similar, everyone has a premise of privacy in their own home. If there is a bathroom with curtains over a window, and from an odd angle, someone could look in and does so, that person would be voyeur, or what we used to call a peeping Tom. Others have a legal responsibility not to invade someone's private personal space. In public spaces, including front yards and large windows facing the street without curtains, one would not have a presumption of privacy. As such, once one is in a non-private place, anyone is able to photograph, video record, or see in. If someone is naked, making obscene gestures, etc. in such a place, the public may take offense and if so, there could be efforts to have the public behavior curtailed. If there is a privacy fence all around the property, that would be presumed to be a private place. Others would have a responsibility not to violate the privacy. If someone bought a house with a backyard pool and patio surrounded by a 6 foot fence, and pre-existing two story houses, one may not have a presumption of privacy. If someone else puts up a two story house after the 6 foot fence was in existence, the one who has the backyard pool could insist on the owner of the two story house mitigating the risk of invasion of privacy. If someone has a large plot of land such as a farm, fencing around the farm would establish the private nature of the farm. If someone then puts up signs which state premises are private and trespassing is prohibited whereever entrances may be such as opening and closing gates, and the area where one is happens to be far enough away from the fence to be presumed private, then others would not legally allowed to look. Under those circumstances, activities including but not limited to naked sun bathing, naked swimming, naked badminton, consenting adults having sex, etc. would be considered to be taking place in a private place. Others would be required to respect the privacy and not peer in. However, one also must live with ones neighbors. Your profile also says you are married with children. If you become a pariah in your neighborhood, it could be hell for your wife and children. I would try and balance your wanting to be naked with living in a neighborhood with good neighborly relationships. Therefore, if one creates a space that is clearly private, one can do whatever one wants as long as it is legal in that space. However, competing personal goals may warrant discreet caution.[/quote] Of course, it's not only the legal aspect, but also the social. I'm sure most of us realise discretion is advisable in many places! The way our (Victorian) law is stated, it's not illegal for me to walk nude down one side of our house even though the neighbour's kitchen window overlooks the fence, as there's no visibility from a public place, but out of respect for my neighbour, I don't do that. If I open the bedroom curtains in the morning, I trust the tinted windows to be sufficient in case of a casual glance, although the street is generally quiet, anyway. I could quickly move if someone is walking past if needed. I can happily live with those restrictions in a residential setting (although the trees along my other fence are developing slower than expected!), but am looking for a law that would allow greater freedoms in open areas without the concern of legal repercussions.

  ReactReply
• ST

  

  SteveOriginal Poster

  Feb 18, 2022

  By Sunluver101: [quote]Privacy in your own home??? Tell that to City Code Enforcement with their binoculars looking for err umm code violations lol![/quote] I think we've been safe from that in the last couple of years! They've been more concerned with anti-government sentiment in social media posts! If they're watching me here, I'm yet to get any feedback regarding it. ;-)

  ReactReply
• ST

  

  SteveOriginal Poster

  Feb 18, 2022

  By mensasnem: [quote]Those are recent changes to the definitions of those words. Language either changes or dies. The complaint only comes when those changes are based on lack of knowledge or the inability to learn.[/quote] I'll add changes for political reasons to that. There's been a handful of such examples in recent times, unfortunately, both here and elsewhere.

  ReactReply
• FU

  

  FullSun

  Feb 18, 2022

  Mensasnem said: [quote]California's social climate towards nudity is somewhat better, but, for the most part, not a great place to be nude.[/quote] True statement and it varies as to what part of the state. We have essentially different cultural areas in the state such as Southern Ca (which some might break up more into LA, and Inland Empire, etc.), Central Coast, Central Valley, SF Bay Area, North Coast, and Northern CA. They are quite different in many ways from weather to politics. Id say the North Coast would most likely be the most accepting as much of it is considered by many as where the hippies went when the 60s and 70s were over.

  ReactReply
• FU

  

  FullSun

  Feb 18, 2022

  .Nudeyooper said: [quote]According to Merriam Webster DictionaryA virgin is a person who has not yet had sexual intercourse.A celibate is a person who is not engaging in sexual intercourse.Both male and female persons as well as animals can be virgins and celibates could have lost their virginity and then turned to a life without sexual intercourse. A celibate too can be either male or female.[/quote] mensasnem said: [quote]Those are recent changes to the definitions of those words. Language either changes or dies. The complaint only comes when those changes are based on lack of knowledge or the inability to learn.[/quote] The dictionary definitions quoted are how Ive understood the meanings as long as Ive known what the words were in my 58 years, So the changes arent recent.

  ReactReply
• PA

  

  Paul

  Feb 18, 2022

  I think my understanding of what private means matches yours. [quote] As I understand the privacy expectations of the law, in this case, private means where only you and who you allow to see and who consents to seeing are true. Therefore, a neighbors kitchen window could be more similar to a public place. [/quote] As long as someone must be on your property to see you, then it's still private. If someone who in not on your property can see you, then it'snotprivate.

  ReactReply
• PA

  

  Paul

  Feb 18, 2022

  You are correct. [quote] I therefore think focusing on the law will not provide much benefit. Promoting mutual respect and tolerance could be very helpful. It may not get all you want, but it could still be the best option. [/quote] I'm very thankful that I live on a one-lane dead-end gravel road out in the country with three heavily-wooded acres. The Girl Scouts do not come visit -- neither do the Boy Scouts. No Trick-or-treaters. All of my neighbors (what few I have) know I'm a nudest.

  ReactReply
• ME

  Member

  Feb 19, 2022

  [quote]If the City is using binoculars to spy into your windows in New York State, the City is in violation of State Law: https://codes.findlaw.com/ny/penal-law/pen-sect-250-40.html.[/quote] Try Upstate and as we all know government officials are 'above the law' and can do whatever they want. If in doubt try dealing with government officials in court and see how far it gets. I know some who have tried this only to have lawyers lie and selectively present evidence to 'win' their case. Also being in violation of the law is one thing but applying penalties to the offender is another. The average Joe or Jane does not have a chance with so the so called justice system.

  ReactReply
• ME

  Member

  Feb 19, 2022

  [quote]By Sunluver101: Privacy in your own home??? Tell that to City Code Enforcement with their binoculars looking for err umm code violations lol! I think we've been safe from that in the last couple of years! They've been more concerned with anti-government sentiment in social media posts! If they're watching me here, I'm yet to get any feedback regarding it. ;-)[/quote] 'WE' are watching you and we do not like what we see! lol...lol

  ReactReply
• BR

  

  Brian

  Feb 19, 2022

  here in the uk its not illegal to be naked in public, there is no law against it, but in reallity, what you will be faced with is a public order offence siteing " behaviour likely to cause offence" seems whether it has caused offence or not is irrelevant!!

  ReactReply
• ST

  

  SteveOriginal Poster

  Feb 20, 2022

  By mikenshe: [quote]here in the uk its not illegal to be naked in public, there is no law against it, but in reallity, what you will be faced with is a public order offence siteing " behaviour likely to cause offence" seems whether it has caused offence or not is irrelevant!![/quote] One step forward, two steps back. A clear law is made. A less-clear is subsequently made that may (or may not) roll back the effect of the first law and make it's interpretation subjective rather than objective. And sweep up all sorts of random flotsam into the net (such as expressing an opinion in the pub or posting on FB (or potentially TN) which earns one a knock on the door by the constabulary for something that is arguably not illegal, but may be perceived as a thought crime. :-(

  ReactReply
• ST

  

  SteveOriginal Poster

  Feb 20, 2022

  You may not be interested in politics.

  But politics is interested in you.

  ReactReply
• JO

  

  John

  Feb 20, 2022

  [quote]You may not be interested in politics. But politics is interested in you.[/quote] How true that is. Take heed, everybody.

  ReactReply