Nudism and Voyeurism/Eroticism: an Oxymoron?

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• CD

  

  Cheri Donna Dawson

  Jul 2, 2011

  defnitely.

  Nudism is not about seeing or being seen.  Right on!

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• BE

  

  beachwalker2691

  Jul 2, 2011

  I'll take a little crack at this.  Voyeurism by the first definition is taking sexual pleasure from observing unsupsecting people in some degree of undress.  So looking at another nudist without any sexual pleasure cannot be voyeurism because the observed naked person is not unsuspecting and no sexual feelings are involved.  However, I do think it is voyeurism to look at a nudist with sexual pleasure if the subject is not aware of the viewers sexual arousal.  If both are aware of the sexual nature of interaction, then I do not think that falls into voyeurism.
  
  
  I find the broad definition of voyeurism to be too broad.
  
  
  The issue of ertocism on this site is for the owner to determine, of course.  We are human beings with programmed behaviors that we can control for the most part.  Sexuality is a part of all of us.  For some people they have a hard time separating nudity with sexuality.  For others it is much easier to keep the two separated.  Should those who can keep the two spearated be penalized becuase there are others on this site who can't?  Of course that is up to the owner, but having a strong libertarian foundation, I would prefer to keep erotic groups here.  Just my personal opinion.

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• PV

  

  Paul Vogler

  Jul 2, 2011

  The point of social nudity is to take overt sexuality out of the situation. This includes "normal" sexual urges as well. Nudism has nothing to do with sex, or sexual preferences. It's about behaving yourself and overcoming the urges that we inherently have. Therefore, it really doesn't matter if you're a voyeur, an exhibitionist, or whatever. As long as you behave yourself in nudist situations then everyone should be fine. Get naked, be happy!

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• MI

  

  MikedawgOriginal Poster

  Jul 2, 2011

  Thank you everyone! This was my first starting thread post. The other 5 have been replies, so I am very glad to have recieved such a possitive response, but regardless of whether the response was possitive, I highly appreciate the discussion that has been contributed thus far. I was going to chime in here but thought I should just let the discussion go on a bit more first. ^_^ Thanks for the discussion!

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• A

  

  A

  Jul 3, 2011

  Your questions:
  How do you think
  voyeurism and eroticism coincide or conflict with the fundamentals of
  truenudists.com or nudism in general?
  Voyerism and exhibitionism are part of the nude setting, albeit where ONLY nudies interact, they not really dominant things. Fact is that a relevant factor for participating some socially nude activities to certain people are exhibitionist/voyerist/eroticist traits.

  Is it alright to include such
  pro-voyeur or pro-eroticism forum posts or groups on this site?
  That is a very hard issue. In general if people were able to take more academic approach, any issue could be discussed. It sure does get discussed in private. Nevertheless I tend to oppose allowing posts of that kind as it gives wrong signals to wrong kind of people who really not desired in community like this, as many such would definitely fall into category "TrueNudist". Groups is a bit different story, and I have no real opinion about it. As an activity between consenting adults, none of the inclinations in the question are illegal, just to which degree and when they can be brought in relation with nude recreation is another issue.

  Do you
  think people do not understand exactly what voyeurism is? Is the term
  "voyuerism" incorectly applied to the non-sexual appreciation of the
  sight of a naked person or people? Do you think there should be a new
  term to identify this appreciaition, if one does not already exist?
  When exactly does a non-sexual appreciation end and when a sexual appreciation begin? It is like many things in life, it is not only 100% or 0%, it can be bit of both. If I see an attractive representative of opposite sex, I appreciate her first and foremost non-sexually nice individual to look at, but my mood, her attention to me or some other detail may bring some sexual undercurrent to my appreciation. If we interact and hit it, my appreciation will turn fully sexual, but in this case it would most probably be already out of broader social nudity context. In general non-sexual appreciation is easy to differ from sexual - people mostly are quite obvious and if their sexual appreciation voyerist/exhibitionist AND strongly sexual they may or may not be able to stick to code of conduct in socially nude environment and that is the key issue here. Besides, non-sexual appreciation of human beauty I would call aestheticism.

  Should any sexual content, (Swinger groups, erotic art groups, etc.) be
  acceptable on this site?
  Word erotic art alone is very debatable. Erotic art may be erotic without being sexually anyhow explicit. On the other hand it may be very blunt, too and thus offensive to some. In cyberspace with human interaction, exual content is always there, just I'd wish people to make a difference between social nudity and sexual preferences. Sex is as good topic to talk about as any, and that includes straight, gay, trans, polygamist, polyamorous, swinger, masturbative etc sex. Just social nudity is not about sex and if sex is one's sole or major motivation to be on a social nudity site, then it is a wrong place. I don't mind talking privately about sexual things myself. On the other hand, if people I talk to start mixing up social nudity and sex or claim to be nudies and give no indication of understanding the elementary things in socially nude behaviour, I do not deem the nudists and am not inclined to talk much with them, either.

  All in all, I would say anything that does not contest the idea of social nudity is OK, including various sexual preferences that are not strictly illegal in most liberal western societies. The real problem in sex-related topics is that they tend to attract the wrong crowd and thus are problematic. I have sat in mixed company in nude setting with very various people and had interesting conversations about sex and sexuality of different individuals of very different kinds around same table/circle, but in socially nude setting it has been informative, not drooly talk. In general live and let live is a good principle. Also certain respect towards people whose preferences (sexual or non-sexual) vary from our own is definitely asked for.

  Practical point is that there already enough wankers and fakes on this site and if somewhat more restrictive approach towards sex and sexuality helps to bring more right types to the site, it is good. On the other hand going too far to the prude corner fends off people who do think sex is part of life and should be able also debated openly BUT nevertheless are TrueNudists and not wankers or fakes. So basically any public topic that has a purpose of exciting either OP or (some) readers is inappropriate and should be removed. On the other thing any topic in the public, handling sex and sexuality, no matter of which kind, in an informative and responsible manner (though some may not say there is nothing responsible in having many partners for instance) is in general OK. Just too many people do not get this fine difference.

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• CO

  

  Curt, or Cowboy

  Jul 3, 2011

  [quote]Many here who are lifelong or certainly long time nudists and have a deep understanding of "nudist culture" find it often frustrating when confronted with chat requests and discussion offered by those who have not yet come to appreciate the difference between social nudism and voyeurism/eroticism. However, such "encounters" offer an opportunity to educate, not in a "lecturing", put down way, but from the passion a deep love and appreciation of what social nudism is truly all about.[/quote] And here we have stated that which is so sorely lacking on this site in particular, of late. In fact, we have too many who take the opposit tack, where any opportunity to correct and educate is turned into an opportunity to scream "troll" and to insult, assault, and otherwise ruin any value whatever may have been had by anyone. An academic discussion is not for everyone, I'm forced to distressingly admit, as there will always be at least one of such a small mind as to not permit it to be, yet we all could learn so much if such discussions could happen, regardless of our experience, or lack thereof. *I* will always gain so much more by an understanding of opposing opinion than otherwise, even if it's only to strengthen my own resolve.

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• MI

  

  Michael

  Jul 4, 2011

  [quote]defnitely. Nudism is not about seeing or being seen.  Right on![/quote]   As much as I understand that argument I would disagree.  If you didn't want to be seen nude or see others nude you'd do it alone in private only, one of the fundamental elements of something being social is the "see and be seen" part of it.  If you'd like to argue that it's not about seeing others or being seen in a sexual light... fine, but I mean really you're there to be seen and see others... naked.  I mean it's not necessarily a thing where you judge on sexual appeal or physical beauty... but you're still wanting to be seen. I mean I'd be lying if I said that I didn't go to nude events to see others as much as to socialize.  I mean take something like a ComicCon or something, part of the reason you go is to learn more about your favorite comics, part of it is to see the people that dress up as comic book characters, and sometimes to go dressed as one.  The problem is this carries a negative conotation because we assume you want it for bad reasons... but there's lots of reasons people like to look and be looked at.  For me it helps reinforce the idea that there's nothing lewd about it... I mean the last time I went locally a woman had a bruise on her ass.  I wasn't "looking" at her ass as in a sexual thing... but I did look and see her ass and notice it, and thought "oh no how did she get that".  The physical may not change your opinion of someone, but it's still something we look at whether we pretend we just see a face or not... just not necessarily in a sexual way.

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• GE

  

  Gerry-4

  Jul 5, 2011

  The LAST thing I would want to see is a site like this one prohibit nude pictures. It would be oxymoronic to talk about nudity and not be able to see it or show it.
  
  ON THE OTHER HAND, it just may may elevate the quality of discourse... and the quality of members and member participation.
  
  As for what Cheri said, I will add this: Even when I'm clothed, I'm not dressing for anyone else's pleasure. Comfort and protection from the elements are the only consideration. Likewise, when nude, I simply want to relax comfortably. Whether someone is looking at me or not is irrelevant.

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• CO

  

  Curt, or Cowboy

  Jul 5, 2011

  [quote]The LAST thing I would want to see is a site like this one prohibit nude pictures. It would be oxymoronic to talk about nudity and not be able to see it or show it.   ON THE OTHER HAND, it just may may elevate the quality of discourse... and the quality of members and member participation.  [/quote] And on yet another hand, ( how many hands does he have ? ) I gotta wonder if a prohibition against showing genetalia at all would force some to consider a more artistic approach, and help to reduce the out and out smut that passes for nudism ? Clearly, some of the best nude art of all time manages to do just exactly that ! ( and so did Sally Rand live and on stage )

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• MI

  

  Michael

  Jul 9, 2011

  [quote][quote]defnitely. Nudism is not about seeing or being seen.  Right on![/quote]   [quote]  As much as I understand that argument I would disagree.  If you didn't want to be seen nude or see others nude you'd do it alone in private only, one of the fundamental elements of something being social is the "see and be seen" part of it.  If you'd like to argue that it's not about seeing others or being seen in a sexual light... fine, but I mean really you're there to be seen and see others... naked.  I mean it's not necessarily a thing where you judge on sexual appeal or physical beauty... but you're still wanting to be seen.[/quote]  What you say is right, YBM2007.  Obviously a major part of social interaction, whether naked or clothed, is to see others and to be seen by them.  I think, though, Cheri was making that rather generalised statement in the context of the OP's questions about voyerism and eroticism.  Social nudism is not about voyeurism (seeing in order to be sexually aroused) nor exhibitionism (being seen in order to be sexually aroused).[/quote] You might want to check your definitions voyeurism is indeed about sexual gratification but exhibitionism is simply about showing off... unless of course you're referring to psychiatric dysfunction, and I assume you aren't in the profession to make that judgment.  Which is probably why they use the term eroticism, which is actually about the sexual stimulation from having your senses activated and is more about a mind fuck, so to speak... which doesn't really fit in.  Maybe... something like... observational.  For example I would love to be a fly on the wall in a polygamist household just to see what the daily trappings are... even if i'm not actively interested in it.  When I go to a beach even if I don't surf I like to watch the surfers... and when I do do something like beach volleyball I enjoy watching as much as I enjoy playing... doesn't mean it's sexual. It's not a definite always/never or everybody/nobody kind of situation... but some people when they go out like to be noticed... and for more than they're awesome volleyball players.  In the same way some people go out to look at more than how well you grill weinies.  Doesn't mean it's sexual... just a human condition.

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• CD

  

  Cheri Donna Dawson

  Jul 10, 2011

  [quote][quote]defnitely. Nudism is not about seeing or being seen. Right on![/quote]  LOL; Nudism is ALL about seeing or being seen. Just as everywhere in the world!![/quote] Maybe in the Netherlands, but not in the rest of the naturist/nudist world.

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• TE

  

  Terry

  Jul 13, 2011

  [quote]Hello. As a statement of observation, there apear to be a recognizable number of groups or forum posts relating to the common intrest of erotic art or voyeurism. Being fairly new to the nudist culture, I may not be completely educated on the incorporation of eroticism and voyeurism in nudist culture. However, I cannot help but be disturbed by the idea that these two -isms can be included in a nudist lifestyle by some people.   After your first paragraph, I'm afraid I glazed over and drifted off.[/quote]

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• ME

  Member

  Jul 14, 2011

  [quote][/quote]

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• ME

  Member

  Jul 14, 2011

  [quote][quote]defnitely. Nudism is not about seeing or being seen.  Right on![/quote]    As much as I understand that argument I would disagree.  If you didn't want to be seen nude or see others nude [/quote] And thus you illustrate you don't understand the argument.  Think about it.

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• MI

  

  Michael

  Jul 14, 2011

  [quote][quote]defnitely. Nudism is not about seeing or being seen.  Right on![/quote]     As much as I understand that argument I would disagree.  If you didn't want to be seen nude or see others nude   And thus you illustrate you don't understand the argument.  Think about it.[/quote] I... don't have to think about it... I understand where you're coming from, but it's still false.  If it wasn't a big deal to be seen naked you would sit at home... by yourself... with the curtains pulled... or you'd go to a "clothing optional" and shed em just because that's how you live.  You go to a "nudist" venue because you long to be naked with other people... so clearly your nakedness and theirs is important... and it's important because you can see it and they can see you... therefore social nudism is completely about being seen.  There's nothing wrong with it... people are still associating "wanting to see other people naked" and "wanting to be seen naked" with this sexual intent... but that's not necessarily true just like the woman in the mini skirt, stilettos and low cut blouse isn't necessarily wearing it to receive sexual attention.  Intent plays into it a lot.  The old man that sits on the park bench watching children play because he enjoys reminiscing on when he was a child is not intending harm, and is therefore ok.  The old man sitting next to him watching the children play because he's fantasizing about doing sexual things with them is considering doing something harmful and awful, and is therefore not ok. What did someone once tell me to describe nudism?  You can look at a man in a business suit and a man in a waiter uniform and know exactly what they do and where they stand in class and status... but when they're nude you can't differentiate the two.  The same applies for this, when you come to something as a nudist you shed the physical trappings that help people describe you as a lawyer or a dentist or a garbage man or a convict or... anything.  Nudism is the great equalizer, but it also means that you can't sit there and say that "you're only here to look at other people because it's sexual in nature" because when you put on that nudist uniform and take off the others... you're only saying "i live life naked" and nothing else. What people forget is that we also incorporate more than that into our lives.  If we like volleyball and we like beaches... we play beach volleyball.  If we like motorcycles and support cancer benefits we ride in the Susan G. Komen motorcycle rally.  In the same way we incorporate more into "living life naked" than just sitting like a bump on a log bare assed.  Not everything fits together... but if nudism is simply "living life naked" it's arguable IMO to say that most things fit into it... and that includes sexual activity.  Now the word "social" is thrown about often enough and it can then be argued that "social" and "sexual activity" cannot exist at the same time (even though I prefer to have sex with other people, but digressing) but I mean... let me try it this way. You can be a vegetarian and still like golf You can be a violinist and still like French food You can be a teacher and still play World of Warcraft while at the same time being a vegetarian golfer who plays the violin at a French restaurant on the weekends... and you can be all of those things and a nudist. If one is a vegetarian, one is still a vegetarian even when they aren't eating.  If one is a polygamist, they are still a polygamist even if they only have one spouse.  If one is sexually attracted to women, they still are even if they don't try to have sex with every woman on the planet in every setting they see.  I got one more, if one is an alcoholic, one is still an alcoholic even if they don't drink.  However, if one does not drink, they don't bear the consequences of alcoholism. It's not just about what you are, it's what you choose to do with it.

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• A

  

  A

  Aug 5, 2011

  Normcastle: I guess the line is drawn where your personal comfort is violated. To me there is usually a clear line, whether a picture is of nudity or does it have other aim as well. If a pic goes beyond my comprehension of nude recreation or regular nude posing, I have hard time to classify person as a nudist/naturist and possible contact is far less open. Any person with a reasonable clothed picture and filled in profile is more convincing than suspicious nude pics combined to an (almost) empty profile.

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• ME

  Member

  Aug 6, 2011

  We agree with the underlying concept that most are trying to percieve on here, for us, I guess it is about being seen and seeing others, but I would also add, that ithis is not the main reason, we enjoy being nude whether or not we are seen.
  I think it is natural human behaviour to like to see people, in any circumstance, so why would it be different in a nudist setting.
  One thing that sets the see and be seen portion of nudism apart from that of the textile world, is that you are not looking at the fashion, or in my hubbys case lack of, so to say that you are not seeing or looking at other people would not be truthful, no different then when you look at people in everyday life.
  Lastly, when it comes to nudism, the true nudist, not the purist nudist (who never looks or has a sexual thought ever), is aware of who is around and respects them for it, with no leering, or gawking, sure they look at the person with repect, and look at the eyes, while talking to them.

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• ST

  

  Steve

  Sep 2, 2011

  Nudismonlineis - almost necessarily - in part about seeing and being seen, since we're notdoinganything but sitting at our keyboards, dealing with text and photos.  But in the real world (which is to say, away from the keyboard) it's quite possible to be naked, out and about and engaged, with little concern for looking at naked bodies or for being seen naked.  That state of relative indifference to nudity, coupled with social engagement, is strongly desired by some people, who were calling themselves nudists before online communities arose, and who, I should think, do have some entitlement to the word.

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• RS

  

  rsmoon

  Sep 25, 2011

  well here go's my opinion may offend,but I have been a nudist for my intire life,I love the human form,mostly the female form,but the male form also, because of no alturnative name, I have classified my self as a voyeur, It has nothing to do with sex (unless I choose) I just like to watch people nude or clothed,prefer nude, but Im not hiding in the bushs to do this, so if that makes me a bad person than so be it I will wear the title or any other one tagged to me with pride ,I hurt no one nor do I bother them,I observe out in the open.............................NUDISM IS ALL ABOUT BEING SEEN AND SEEING................RIGHT ON.......

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• DW

  

  Dario Western

  Sep 25, 2011

  [quote]well here go's my opinion may offend,but I have been a nudist for my intire life,I love the human form,mostly the female form,but the male form also, because of no alturnative name, I have classified my self as a voyeur, It has nothing to do with sex (unless I choose) I just like to watch people nude or clothed,prefer nude, but Im not hiding in the bushs to do this, so if that makes me a bad person than so be it I will wear the title or any other one tagged to me with pride ,I hurt no one nor do I bother them,I observe out in the open.............................NUDISM IS ALL ABOUT BEING SEEN AND SEEING................RIGHT ON.......[/quote]  After a while, it should not make any difference as to whether a person is dressed or nude.  They are still a person.  Voyeurism is not to do with seeing people naked in public, but seeing a person naked when they don't realise you are or watching people have sex surreptiously.

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