Greek statuary and the nudist ethos — The Mens Room on True Nudists

SteveOriginal Poster

May 20, 2024

Greek statuary is notable for the somewhat minimized depiction of the male genitalia. The statues were mostly of figures to admire. And mastery of the body, mastery of the passions - were admirable attributes. Rather larger genitalia represented a lack of that mastery, held up for condescension or mockery, as in figures of barbarians or comic vase paintings. It occurs to me that there is a strain of nudism that celebrates that sort of mastery. Dependingvery muchon context, I can certainly feel that impulse in myself. It's not prudery or anything of the sort, but a kind of pride. As the Greeks were proud of how civilized they were. The internet is not real life, and photography is not sculpture; they can't, I don't think, embody the same symbolism. But do you think that in real life nudism - "true" nudism as it would define itself - there's real pride in a level of mastery of the passions that would not be so evident in the clothed male body?

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SA
Stone Andy
May 20, 2024
Pride in the mastery of passion sounds like a celebration of an athleticism, discipline and vitality. These are all admirable traits still celebrated today albeit with genitals covered. However, the idea of nudism needs closer examination. My understading is that the Greeks were very strict in keeping the foreskin covering the head of the penis, often tying it shut, and considered an uncovered glans vulgar. In addition, much of the Christian morality (defined largely by Saul of Tarus aka the Apotle Paul) was a reaction against the boy-man love Greek practice of pederasty which was later incorrectly translated from Greek into the term homosexuality, a word that wasnt's even invented until the 1860's. Somehow the nudist ethos started out as hero worship but became a way to sow fear against minorities for political control.
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StevieLorna
May 20, 2024
Homosapian was first coined in 1758, but Im pretty sure weve been around a bit longer than that.
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StevieLorna
May 20, 2024
Homosapian was first coined in 1758, but Im pretty sure weve been around a bit longer than that.
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Bairskyn
May 20, 2024
Having no expertise in Greek statuary or the early historical basis of Christian morality (but more power to those that have!) all I can say is, yes Steve, I have felt and was drawn by that feeling of self-control, not only of body but definitely of mind as well. It feels as if discipline of character provides more space for a fuller appreciation of more than one's sexual self. (Not that that need be fully suppressed, just quieted unless and until sparked by deeper, more personal connections.) This is what is at odds with the nudism-is-for-cruising-for-sex crowd.
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Vin
May 20, 2024
Steve, Andy and bairskyn raise great points about nudity and self-control as we find it in Greek art. But for the Greeks nudity had multiple meanings, most connected, strange for us to imagine, to notions of the sacred. Gods and heroes are often represented naked to indicate their immortal status and their origins in ancestral time-space. Athletes in the great games competed naked in order to resemble them and honor them. Even everyday Greek men exercising in the gymnasium were imitating these sacred figures to some degree. On the other hand Greek vases can also depict satyrs (half-human, half-goat), buddies of Dionysus, engaging in every sexual act possible, often w huge erect penises. This was for laughs, for arousal of the drinkers at symposiums (drinking parties), but also under the sacred shadow of Dionysus, god of exuberance (musical, alcoholic, sexual, make-believe). These vases also show ordinary Greek men and women sometimes performing sexually at drinking parties: this is the other side of self-control, its opposite, but also under the influence of the gods ability to make folks behave beyond the limits. Pretty confusing stuff!
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JO
John
May 20, 2024
And it's worth noting that the female pudendal cleft was almost entirely absent in classic Greek and Roman sculpture. I suspect that the artists were going toward a more idealized figure that downplayed those parts of the body that were devoted to reproduction. And while male genitalia can't be totally dispensed with, the artist could minimize it... yeah, he's a guy, but it's the rest of the anatomy that's important.
As been noted above, the only time you see prominent male genitalia in art of that period is when it's intended to be erotic.
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SteveOriginal Poster
May 20, 2024
In the modern world, it seems to be something to take satisfaction / pride in if one has the ability to be aroused when appropriate - but satisfaction / pride in the ability NOT to be aroused when that's appropriate to circumstance seems to get taken as prudery. Aren't both true? On this site, one hears over and over again more or less "I can't control my body". Which - channeling my inner ancient Greek - would seem to be an indication you've got work to do on yourself. Anyway, my conjecture is that there's a littlefrissonof satisfaction / pride in successfully managing nudity in nonsexual contexts, to the point that people will seek those contexts out partly for that feeling.
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EarlD
May 20, 2024
Steve - you raise a point of great interest to me. I have always been confounded by the notion promoted by some that the only bodily function that seems consistentky uncontrollable is male arousal. It begs the question, is it the body function that isn't being controlled or is it the behavior of the individual? [quote]On this site, one hears over and over again more or less "I can't control my body". Which - channeling my inner ancient Greek - would seem to be an indication you've got work to do on yourself. [/quote]
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EarlD
May 20, 2024
IMO much of the historical Greek practice of nudity is misunderstood or misinterpreted today. For example recent historical references suggest the participants in Greek Olympics as a whole were not naked. Only the penultimate event the sprint was done naked so as to avoid the restrictions to movement that came with the kind of clothing worn.
Another point is that there were very specific rules around nudity in Greek society and general nakedness was a sign of enslavement. Finally the practice of any social nudity in Greek society originated with their adoption of the practice observed from the gymnosophists or naked philosophers that Alexander encountered in his conquest of India. It did not emerge from within Greek society.
Just a couple thoughts on this subject as it relates to the historical and current nudist ethos.
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Stone Andy
May 21, 2024
[quote]IMO much of the historical Greek practice of nudity is misunderstood or misinterpreted today. For example recent historical references suggest the participants in Greek Olympics as a whole were not naked. Only the penultimate event the sprint was done naked so as to avoid the restrictions to movement that came with the kind of clothing worn.[/quote] This is news to me. According to the International Olympic Committee "All athletes competed naked" (see https://olympics.com/ioc/ancient-olympic-games). It doesn't sound like athletes stayed clothed until the second to last (penultimate) event, but that nudity was a part of all of it. If you have sources, including the order of the events, I'd love to read more.
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Tom D
May 21, 2024
Agreed. I have read the same in many places.
I have also read that coaches and trainers were also nude and athletes also trained and received their awards nude.
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Gary
May 21, 2024
Fascinating thread - please continue since I have little knowledge of this other than enjoying Greek history. I sat at the original stadium on Mt Olympus in Greece and was enthralled by the fact that a millennia ago another person sat exactly where I was sitting and watched the very first Olympic games with naked athletes. Was amazing to feel the stone seat under me in a place and time that has been occupied by hundreds if not thousands before me.
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Tom D
May 21, 2024
[quote]And it's worth noting that the female pudendal cleft was almost entirely absent in classic Greek and Roman sculpture. I suspect that the artists were going toward a more idealized figure that downplayed those parts of the body that were devoted to reproduction. And while male genitalia can't be totally dispensed with, the artist could minimize it... yeah, he's a guy, but it's the rest of the anatomy that's important. As been noted above, the only time you see prominent male genitalia in art of that period is when it's intended to be erotic.[/quote] Maybe the genitalia on Michelangelo's David are undersized for a similar reason.
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EA
EarlD
May 22, 2024
Chapter six of the book Therapy, nudity & joy : the therapeutic use of nudity through the ages, from ancient ritual to modern psychology from Aileen Goodson is a good reference resource IMO
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Stone Andy
May 22, 2024
[quote]Chapter six of the book Therapy, nudity & joy : the therapeutic use of nudity through the ages, from ancient ritual to modern psychology from Aileen Goodson is a good reference resource IMO[/quote] Interesting book! Per Amazon it was published in 1991 and costs $34.50 new or used. I'd like to read it but will hold off.
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SteveOriginal Poster
May 22, 2024
Looks like a really worthwhile book. I've ordered a copy; book review to follow!
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John
May 23, 2024
[quote] Maybe the genitalia on Michelangelo's David are undersized for a similar reason.[/quote] Undersized? From what I've seen around nude men, that size isn't unusual at all. I think it only seems that way because much of the rest of David's anatomy is supersized, so to speak.
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EA
EarlD
May 24, 2024
If you are interested in sharing your review in the nude reads review section on my site let me know. [quote]Looks like a really worthwhile book. I've ordered a copy; book review to follow![/quote]
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EarlD
May 24, 2024
You can find it on Abe Books and other used book site. It covers the emergence and brief history of the nude therapy movement.
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Tom D
May 24, 2024
[quote]Maybe the genitalia on Michelangelo's David are undersized for a similar reason. Undersized? From what I've seen around nude men, that size isn't unusual at all. I think it only seems that way because much of the rest of David's anatomy is supersized, so to speak.[/quote] True, I meant small in proportion to the size of the statue.
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Tom D
May 24, 2024
[quote]Maybe the genitalia on Michelangelo's David are undersized for a similar reason. Undersized? From what I've seen around nude men, that size isn't unusual at all. I think it only seems that way because much of the rest of David's anatomy is supersized, so to speak.[/quote] True, I meant small in proportion to the size of the statue.
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EA
EarlD
May 26, 2024
Some additional historical perspective on athletic nudity in Greek from academia exploring the introduction of nudity in the Greek Olympic Games. The quote and the two papers by the same authors illustrate that nudity was notalwaysa part of the Olympics. In fact there were 15 Olympiads over 50 before the introduction of any nudity in the games. They suggest its introduction was utilitarian in nature. Not some high minded acceptance of public nudity, as is oft implied in current modern nudist mythology.Nudity at the Olympic Games was neither primitive nor original, by all accounts it was deliberately introduced around the l5th Olympiad or 720BCE, more than 50 years after the traditional founding of the Games.11 Before that, athletes presumably competed in loincloths (zomata) that covered their genitals, as they had in Homer's epics-our earliest written account of Greek athletics. Outside of sport and certain religious rituals, nudity was and always had been considered shameful in Greek societyInterestingly enough, explanations for the introduction of athletic nudity at the ancient Olympic Games include (l) performance enhancement and (2) safety. The 2nd c. CE travel writer Pausanias tells us that Orsippus of Megara initiated the practice by winning the footrace after losing his loincloth. "My own opinion," Pausanias adds, "is that at Olympia he intentionally let the girdie slip off him,realizing that a naked man can nm more easily than one girt."3 On the face of it, this story seems plausible since we commonly think of athletes as doing anything and everything to improve their performance. Dionysius of Halicarnassus concurs that the runner intentionally dropped his shorts, adding that before the incident Greeks were ashamed to appear naked at the Games.[url][link]/link/9b5f8217eabc64d9/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYWNhZGVtaWEuZWR1Lzc5MDUxODc3L0FuY2llbnRfQXRobGV0aWNfTnVkaXR5X2FuZF90aGVfT2x5bXBpY19FdGhvc19vZl9BcmV0ZQ%3D%3D[/link]Ancient Athletic Nudity and the Olympic Ethos of Arete[/url] [url][link]/link/5e444ebe4c19a69b/aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYWNhZGVtaWEuZWR1LzYxODY4NDMyL05ha2VkX1ZpcnR1ZV9BbmNpZW50X0F0aGxldGljX051ZGl0eV9hbmRfdGhlX09seW1waWNfRXRob3Nfb2ZfQXJldCVDNCU5Mw%3D%3D[/link] Naked Virtue: Ancient Athletic Nudity and the Olympic Ethos of Arete[/url]
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EarlD
May 26, 2024
Another view posited but the authors of the papers suggests that because the games were more religious festival that athletic competition the introduction of nudity was in homage to the Greek gods.It seems plausible, in light of such ritual, that athletic nudity was introduced into the Olympic Games in religious imitation of gods and heroes. The connection is powerfully illustrated in Greek art by the many "god or athlete" statues, which appear about the same time as athletic nudity.3l The very first of these werekouroi, 7th century BCE images ranging from small bronze figurines to larger-than-life statues (their female counterparts, like female athletes, wear clothing).While the authors provide no definitive reason or origin for introduction of nudity to Olympics they suggest it was tied to a communal ethos the ethos of Arte. The ethos of Arte represented certain shared communal values and virtues. This reflects a great similarity adherence to communal virtues and values expressed in early naturist movements like Lebensreform and FKK. One theme seems to emerge from this exploration is Greek nudity was deeply connected to social mores, norms and values. The papers suggest nudity was never just for the sake of individual nakedness but had ethical, philosophical, religious, communal and even democratic purpose.
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Tom D
May 26, 2024
[quote]Another view posited but the authors of the papers suggests that because the games were more religious festival that athletic competition the introduction of nudity was in homage to the Greek gods. It seems plausible, in light of such ritual, that athletic nudity was introduced into the Olympic Games in religious imitation of gods and heroes. The connection is powerfully illustrated in Greek art by the many "god or athlete" statues, which appear about the same time as athletic nudity.3l The very first of these werekouroi, 7th century BCE images ranging from small bronze figurines to larger-than-life statues (their female counterparts, like female athletes, wear clothing). While the authors provide no definitive reason or origin for introduction of nudity to Olympics they suggest it was tied to a communal ethos the ethos of Arte. The ethos of Arte represented certain shared communal values and virtues. This reflects a great similarity adherence to communal virtues and values expressed in early naturist movements like Lebensreform and FKK. One theme seems to emerge from this exploration is Greek nudity was deeply connected to social mores, norms and values. The papers suggest nudity was never just for the sake of individual nakedness but had ethical, philosophical, religious, communal and even democratic purpose.[/quote] How does the practice of all nude exercising and athletic training and some nude academic education fit into this concept?
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