Terminology *Bisexual*

Replies

• ME

  Member

  Jul 21, 2019

  Well put. I believe it all stems from people wanting to put "Special" labels on everything nowadays and over-complicate things. I'm a firm believer in simplicity

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• ST

  

  StevieLorna

  Jul 21, 2019

  I couldnt care less what peoples sexual preferences are. Its their business not any of mine.

  Its also got nothing to do with preferring to sunbathe without clothes.

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• JI

  

  JimOriginal Poster

  Jul 21, 2019

  [quote]I couldnt care less what peoples sexual preferences are. Its their business not any of mine. Its also got nothing to do with preferring to sunbathe without clothes.[/quote] This was not about the individual choices. It's about the way rhetoric is used on the site and the relative number of members dealing with questions about their identity. The word use is problematic. This is all. Funnily enough, clearer use of language might actually help with reducing the number of threads on the topic that you seem perturbed by. I am also well aware that the topic isn't naturism. You're going to note that the site has several non naturist threads and subjects. The discussion is clinical not erotic. I will of course endeavor to render future prose even more drab.

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• JI

  

  JimOriginal Poster

  Jul 21, 2019

  There's also a series of posts regarding basic knowledge and skills navigating the MSM world and of course the disastrous sexual health threads where factually incorrect information, bad assumptions and stigmatizing language coupled with advice offered with little to no actual lived experience or research and the elephant in the room is that the construction of an imaginary bisexual culture and locus separate from LGBTQ2 culture leads people to think that they are not part of LGBTQ2 culture or don't have to be, even though they are having MSM sex. The further assertion is that this space (which isn't real, it's the tunnel view of hookups had in various urban environments) is safer, less dangerous and a better place to meet for anonymous sex or a partner. It's also assumed to be a good way to avoid HIV.

  In multiple cases I've had to correct misinformation and dangerous misinformation several times whilst folks who have no idea what they are on about assert false, harmful and incorrect information and advice. I know HIV, cruising, digital, bathhouse and club culture as well as the history and the public health strategies that are being used in public and private spaces LGBTQ2 identified. The knowledge is community specific. But the indulgence of the myth that there is a MSM or bi hookup network separate from LGBTQ2 institutions is causing false information to be held up as truth. What these spaces are is cruising or nebulous bathhouses, clubs that are promoting one thing on the surface but another in reality and internet chat. If all you're looking for is sex the risk is not great if you follow safer sex guidelines. But the myth is also that these spaces are more or less safe from HIV drugs crime etc. This is not true.

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• SA

  

  Stone Andy

  Jul 21, 2019

  [quote]But the criticism is about deliberately erasing the same sex aspect of the activity, not that stigma exists (its a bit rich reminding someone who has experienced it in ways that most here haven't). Why is this an issue? Lack of definition, stigma and the insistence that the first category that has to go is gay (we never seem to get to the others so much) with a thin argument that sexuality is a spectrum of ones, a purely linguistic concept that is not in any way tied to real people or biology is not helping. Calling one aspect of a bisexual relationship straight and the other bi is not helping. The criticism is really quite gentle. I could have mentioned the not so good homophobia that crops up and the homophobia that is killing LGBTQ2 people around the world. We need more people to have the courage to move their goalposts, especially when they are being deliberately placed wrongly. My beef is the convolutions of the prefixes used. There's no other terminology used here with this strange reworking. Whether or not we erase the use of prefixes is not the point, they are used. And here the argument for one element of one prefix where it's the only place where relativistic non logical definition is being advanced (the others are more or less fixed meaning definitions) cannot hold any water.[/quote] I respect your views, but am not clear on where you're coming from. In a polarized world, I see bisexual as a category which people want to get rid of, not gay. I see that bi by definition includes both hetero and homosexual behavior. I'm not sure what you mean by moving goalposts, reworking prefixes or relativistic non logical definitions. I understand that homophobia endangers and kills people, and I imagine that by defining as bi, men can engage in the same homosexual activities, categorize it as something other than gay and jump on the gay bashing wagon. That's standard bigotry and hypocrisy, an equal opportunity hatred to protect the scorecard of anything deemed the "other". One question: how do we better support each other as men, no sexual orientation strings attached?

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• EA

  

  EarlD

  Jul 23, 2019

  [quote] So if someone wants to describe their sexual encounters as 'bi' then that's their call, not anyone else's.[/quote] Exactly why should feel the need define someone elses sexual orientation or gender identity for them and why should it matter

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• TJ

  

  TJ

  Jul 28, 2019

  [quote]So if someone wants to describe their sexual encounters as 'bi' then that's their call, not anyone else's. Exactly why should feel the need define someone elses sexual orientation or gender identity for them and why should it matter[/quote] It matters because you are giving them a needed reality check that could do the kindness of saving their health or even lives, while also maintaining respectful due to the blood, sweat, tears, and even lives of those who shouldered the burdens and cleared the paths that allow them to so freely explore and define themselves now. Silence Equals Death remains one of the greatest slogans ever created and still holds true today. 1. It really isn't fair that some are allowed to perform a perpetual linguistic trick that allows them to indulge in the same behaviors that are indeed gay while never having to "pay their dues" for the privilege - or rather THINKING they are exempt from any payment when the reality is 2. They may pay a tremendous price with their health or lives if they allow themselves to be fooled as they believe they are fooling others into thinking they are engaging in anything other than gay behavior and thus subject to the same physical pitfalls.

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• SA

  

  Stone Andy

  Jul 29, 2019

  [quote]It matters because you are giving them a needed reality check that could do the kindness of saving their health or even lives, while also maintaining respectful due to the blood, sweat, tears, and even lives of those who shouldered the burdens and cleared the paths that allow them to so freely explore and define themselves now. They may pay a tremendous price with their health or lives if they allow themselves to be fooled as they believe they are fooling others into thinking they are engaging in anything other than gay behavior and thus subject to the same physical pitfalls.[/quote] I respect the idea of honoring pioneers and defenders of freedoms and rights that are easy to take for granted. First you speak of paths that allow people to freely explore and define themselves. Then you speak of specific gay behaviors. I am against hypocrisy, but I'm also against defining people, including myself and others, based on behaviors. There are usually a set of personality traits and a tribal affiliation with labels. I hold two passports and can call myself Swedish and American. I eat meatballs and herring and have that look, but consider Swedish-American as mixture of the worst of both cultures and don't like that label. Is it wrong for a man to call himself homosexual but not gay? Are men who masturbate masturbators or normal men? Are those who try gay sex gay for that moment or gay for life? Can we disconnect sexual behaviors from sexual identities? Can risky behavior, whether sexual or vehicular, be identified as a behavior only? Can men and women be sexual beings and honor others as fellow sexual beings, all unique expressions of love, intimacy and sexuality? If so, how we can we honor them as such?

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• JI

  

  JimOriginal Poster

  Jul 30, 2019

  [quote]It matters because you are giving them a needed reality check that could do the kindness of saving their health or even lives, while also maintaining respectful due to the blood, sweat, tears, and even lives of those who shouldered the burdens and cleared the paths that allow them to so freely explore and define themselves now.They may pay a tremendous price with their health or lives if they allow themselves to be fooled as they believe they are fooling others into thinking they are engaging in anything other than gay behavior and thus subject to the same physical pitfalls. I respect the idea of honoring pioneers and defenders of freedoms and rights that are easy to take for granted. First you speak of paths that allow people to freely explore and define themselves. Then you speak of specific gay behaviors. I am against hypocrisy, but I'm also against defining people, including myself and others, based on behaviors. There are usually a set of personality traits and a tribal affiliation with labels. I hold two passports and can call myself Swedish and American. I eat meatballs and herring and have that look, but consider Swedish-American as mixture of the worst of both cultures and don't like that label. Is it wrong for a man to call himself homosexual but not gay? Are men who masturbate masturbators or normal men? Are those who try gay sex gay for that moment or gay for life? Can we disconnect sexual behaviors from sexual identities? Can risky behavior, whether sexual or vehicular, be identified as a behavior only? Can men and women be sexual beings and honor others as fellow sexual beings, all unique expressions of love, intimacy and sexuality? If so, how we can we honor them as such?[/quote] Look, I am all for the philosophical approach but the post isn't about your ideas it's about common usage of language and I should note that TN is not the only site, they just got the post. So what I want you to grasp is not only the historical but the present, and the way in which binaries are created, maintained and reinforced in our culture and subcultures. The deconstruction of the oppression of categoricals is certainly cool but there's far worse oppression left in the still institutional relegation of some bodies into the bad category and the bodies have the practices and the two are not easily extracted as one might feel is warranted. Human society is messy. Also, as long as the thing that is being erased is stigmatized it must be destigmatized before it is unnamed. You can't fix stigma which has no obvious referent it becomes slippery and hidden. I want to see men saying they have no issue with the guys who identify as gay and not make crude homophobic remarks in front of certain friends before they start claiming M4M sex as not gay and theirs in a way that isn't really defined just slippery. And while this sounds like I am ranting for me, it is for them. Of course everyone goes through their own time and path to growth, and yes, self define however you want but at the end of the day, we're not unicorns, lilies or wankel rotary engines as much as we might want to say so, and the point of the discussion is not to say "you there, don't do that" it's to say that language has impact and this seems to be the wrong way to handle this issue , which is homophobia and the fear of being called gay when you're looking for cock. No one should suffer that, but the best solution is not the one that has evolved, how do I know? Lived it. I love the idea of honoring the being and the body and the spirit. Let me know when you find these leprechauns because I have been searching for them (I am being facetious, many of us are travelling and many wise travellers exist), and I would love to be able to share myself in a way I don't always get to because of the way of the world, but until then I gotta gay for a day or more, it's the label I chose to express a political stance and that is as attractive to some as it is not to others.

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• JI

  

  JimOriginal Poster

  Jul 31, 2019

  [quote]So if someone wants to describe their sexual encounters as 'bi' then that's their call, not anyone else's. Exactly why should feel the need define someone elses sexual orientation or gender identity for them and why should it matter[/quote] One, I am a researcher who works in this area and a community member. One more time, this wasn't about singling out 'a' person but talking about the way language is used. We don't unfortunately have absolute power over word meaning. Language is a collective effort and the meaning of a word is primarily defined by what the group says it means. Science is even more precise in how it seeks to define. So while I am absolutely supportive of self discovery and growth, I don't need to agree that it's good to self define in any way possible and that is that. It just isn't true.

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• CM

  

  Call me Al

  Aug 2, 2019

  I second this. A bi man sometimes has straight sex and sometimes gay sex. Bi sex is a term which allows the bi man to not label himself gay.

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• CM

  

  Call me Al

  Aug 2, 2019

  I second this. A bi man sometimes has straight sex and sometimes gay sex. Bi sex is a term which allows the bi man to not label himself gay.

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• ME

  Member

  Aug 5, 2019

  who cares in the nudists world should not be an issue, we just naked should not be a topic here!!!!

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• ST

  

  Steve

  Aug 5, 2019

  Let's try to separate two things.

  First thing: Labels for sexual episodes.
  The OP began by talking about the label applied to a particular sexual encounter, specifically references by mostly straight-identified, bi-curious, etc. men to having "bi" sex, by which they mean sex with men. And yes, this gets said a lot. I notice it, and share the OP's sense that there's something a little off about it.

  Second thing: Labels for people.
  A person may identify - label - themselves pretty much as they want, which is why the LBT--etc list of initials keeps getting longer.

  I identify as gay because I'm married to a man, in a committed relationship, and because I move socially in the gay community. I suppose in a clinical sense I'm bi, but to say so would make it seem as if I were looking for sex with women, which I am not. (Note the "committed relationship" bit, above.) If I were to have sex with a man, that would be gay (or to be really careful, homosexual) sex. If I were to have sex with a woman, that would be straight (or to be really careful, heterosexual) sex. And the same exact thing is true for a person who labels themselves as straight, or bi, or whatever. Whenever two conventionally gendered beings have sex, it's either heterosexual or homosexual, in common English straight or gay. Period. There really isn't such a thing as bi sex between two such people.

  So when a guy talks about having "bi" sex, meaning sex with another guy, yeah, he's dodging the use of the words "gay" and "homosexual," and gay guys really notice the evasion.

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• T=

  

  Tom === Thomas S. Tierney

  Aug 6, 2019

  If a lifelong Vegetarian succumbs to temptation and eats a hamburger does that mean he must now call himself a Carnivore?

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• ST

  

  Steve

  Aug 6, 2019

  No, it doesn't. Labels applied to people are never absolute, because people are more complicated than any label can ever pin down: a vegetarian can eat meat, a Catholic can use birth control, a pacifist can hit somebody, a straight person can have a same-sex encounter, a Republican can vote for a Democrat. But all those labels may still be the best fit for the people involved.

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• JO

  

  Jon

  Aug 19, 2019

  I'm gay, and have known one guy that I would truly describe as bisexual - my last boyfriend. He had a live-in girlfriend and had sex with her, though when with me he was submissive in gay sex. Both were important to him.

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• MA

  

  ManOfWicklow

  Aug 20, 2019

  [quote]If a lifelong Vegetarian succumbs to temptation and eats a hamburger does that mean he must now call himself a Carnivore?[/quote] he could be a Bi-Veggie or maybe a Bi-Nivore

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• JI

  

  JimOriginal Poster

  Aug 22, 2019

  [quote]If a lifelong Vegetarian succumbs to temptation and eats a hamburger does that mean he must now call himself a Carnivore?[/quote] It depends on whether or not the carrot salad was actually sausage. The post isn't about the statistical outliers nor one person. Individuals can and do call themselves anything they please.

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• JI

  

  JimOriginal Poster

  Aug 22, 2019

  [quote]I second this. A bi man sometimes has straight sex and sometimes gay sex. Bi sex is a term which allows the bi man to not label himself gay. Few things. 1) why should a bi man label himself gay? If he is bi he isnt gay any more than he is straight. Dont like a tendency among some of the gay community to say a bisexual is someone who hasnt got the courage to admit they are gay. If you want respect for your sexuality then respect other peoples. 2) if a person, of either sex, is in a group sex scenario and actively engaged with members if different sexes at the same time then what is that? 3) does it really matter? Why the obsession with labels and the minute detail of whether they are right or not. Someone is having sex with someone else. Leave it at that.[/quote] That's 100% not what was said. The issue is about the way bisexual is defined as heterosexual when it's mf and bisexual when it's mm or ff. You don't see that as avoiding the same sex aspect just a touch? And again this isn't about one person not intended to refer to one person nor should it be taken as such. You start off discussing sexuality in general then go back to 'it's nobody's business'. Of course. I can talk about dogs without meaning that Irish setter named Toby. So can we talk of language without meaning one specific Person. I call myself gay have had relationships with men and women and am slightly on the genderfluid side. My labels don't match. But I don't call sex with women gay sex or sex with men straight sex or either bi sex. Not here but in a bbs i am on there was a serious discussion about how gay men were growing beards to trick straight men into gay sex instead of straight sex with other straight men. Absolutely ridiculous. It's ok to have same sex attraction and when two dudes go at it they are getting the homosexual on. If they want to call it something else, fine. But it's avoiding the obvious.

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• JI

  

  JimOriginal Poster

  Aug 22, 2019

  [quote]who cares in the nudists world should not be an issue, we just naked should not be a topic here!!!![/quote] So the category is sexuality. This is a discussion of language use in the community and in others like it. Where would you put this discussion? And if this isn't in the right place what should be here? I assure you that issues big and small permeate all aspects of life including nudism and the homophobia in some sectors is frankly rabid. I'm pleased with this community of great people who generally care. I do too. It's not a pick up or a wank topic. Language use.

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• ME

  Member

  Aug 30, 2019

  I'm not going to get into too much of a battle to defend the existence of my sexual identity, but I will share a few points:

  1. My sexual identity is NOT determined by whom I'm in a relationship with. That's ludicrous. Its not that we're having "bi sex". He's gay. I'm bi. We just call it sex. He's not more gay nor am I less bi for it.

  2. Bi = Sexual attraction for 2 or more genders. Pan = Gender is irrelevant. You can be a bi person that likes men and women, sure, but there are more than just binary genders out there (quite frankly, whether you accept that or not)

  3. Please do some research on the subject before hip firing on a subject of someone's literal identity. Erasure is not cool.

  Have a good one.

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• MA

  

  ManOfWicklow

  Aug 30, 2019

  Bye bi boring thread.

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• JI

  

  JimOriginal Poster

  Sep 12, 2019

  [quote]Bye bi boring thread.[/quote] You can do better than this, the seed planting joke was quite clever!

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